where is the discount for BB1 owners?

i really wonder... what will happen to us BB1 who has fully paid for the license (not subscription)... Isn't there any 50% discount if we were to go for the subscription plan for BB2? We are pretty disappointed because we are one of the first to have bought BB1 even though we didn't have the budget (we know this is not the basis of the argument) but like what everyone has said... if there's a 50% discount of the subscription plan or even anything to at least keep us so that we can grow with BBox without burning our wallets... that would be truly appreciated.

And we think that if BBox would "REALLY" take care of their existing customers... hey... we don't think anyone would mind to actually promote on behalf of Bbox on how good the software is... We for one definitely would... In fact we are also considering to sell on behalf of Bbox if there was really a reseller program... Sorry for the rant @TreySmith .... We just wanna do our best and be proud that we are using BBox..

 

A lot of opinions here, and I would like to add mine, if for no other reason that to give BB and Co. a little insight into the psyche of a (likely, typical) BB customer.

I purchased on August 27, and monthly subscriptions was announced on August 28th. I was pissed! I had been cruising the old forums and there wasn't a peep about subs coming that I saw. Maybe something about BB 2 on the far horizon, but not that jumped out at me.

At that time, I believe it was version 1.3.4. Andy and Co were actively on the forums, and ticket system, responding to issues and taking bug requests, even on weekends! Within a couple weeks if memory serves, there came 1.3.5. I felt the software was improving, actively being developed and features added. From a BB customer standpoint I felt I was being taken care.

Simultaneously during this time, I was working on my first game ever. The software (BB) crashed a LOT, but I was willing to work around it and hit (ctrl+s) every two minutes. This was a couple guys making some pretty good software, I was happy to support.

The bigger issue for me was features, as I started to progress into my first game, I realized there were MANY limitations in BB. As I searched for an issue or wanted a feature, I found it either didn't work or didn't exist. My game had to keep changing, until I basically had something that looked like every other game on the market (from a functional stand point). I kept hoping for feature upgrades in 1.3.6, which to date, still isn't here and most likely won't have any feature updates now. Yes, I had a 30 day trial. I used it on and off for 2-3 weeks of the trial before purchasing and spent another 2-3 weeks on that first game. Again, active forums, quick responses, developing software with really good support. I was sold on the indie software guys, and decided I wanted to support their "movement".

I got busy with the day job and put BB on the back burner after not being very happy with my first game. Partly because it was my first one, and partly because I had to sacrifice so much of my vision for the game.

That was mid to late September. October was a blur with life and work travel. Of course, every time I got one of the emails from BB, I would remember that huge payment I made, and think, "I need to try again, so the money isn't wasted." Several times I fired up BB just to see if there were any updates, none.

Two-Three weeks ago, I finally sat back down to plug away at a game I had been thinking about. Then the news of 2.0 hit, of course I asked about the "early supporters" and upgrade pricing. I did the math like everyone else. I paid $2700 when there was no option for monthly subs. And 4 months later, I have two options

1. Pay another $1,300 or be left in the dust
2. Eat the $2700 and go to monthly subs

Of course, if I pay the $1,300, I have to hope there's no BB 3 in the next like 4 years to have a savings benefit.

I believe BB is following the right path, and the business model (monthly) is smart. Where BB is failing, is not taking care of the transitional people. Those that bought within the last 4-18 months and had no option for monthly payments.

I truly believe the only way to make it right is with two options:

1. Give any BB1 owner, 12-24 months of free subscription service in exchange for their BB 1 license. Dollar for dollar swap.
-Meaning, you bought 8 months ago, we subtract $800 from $2700 and give you 19 months of sub service.

2. Tier the discounts for a full license. < 6 months = $300 upgrade, 6-12 months + $800 upgrade, 12-24 months = $1300

Anything other than this, in my opinion, is failing to take care of those that took care of BB.

As a programmer, I know that pricing scheme is not easy to implement depending on your licensing server and payment systems. But, maintaining this pay half or screw off model is really making me and others second guess BB.

All that said, I will likely still pay the $1300 if it has everything I hope it does, I just won't like it.

 

@TreySmith
1. What about Master Collection owners?
As "high end" customers, will we benefit from a greater discount when upgrading ??(greater than 50%.)
At almost 6k total (bb license+bbmc), it would only seem fair...
Or am I mistaken to think Master collection owners deserve a greater gesture when upgrading than normal users?
2. Also will the BB Master collection get anymore updates?? It feels unfinished on oh so many levels...
3. Finally, will a new master collection come out in 2016? If yes, will it go through the same "upgrade" model as BB1-BB2???

 

This is exactly what I will do Subscription is simply the best option. Period. Especially as I firmly believe that BB 3.0 will be announced within a 1 year period or something similar to that.

I need to register a new account and the old ($2700) one goes in to the trash bin. I feel a bit disappointed that as an "old" user I have to pay more for the same content than a brand new customer. I just can't agree with the logic behind it.

I think everyone that bought BB 1 for $2700 should have the free upgrade option (same as peoples that bought it 45 days before BB 2.0 announcement) - just to treat us the same as the newcomers.

One more thing: I need to agree with @horn_nicolas - I bought a Master Collection and I feel that this project is unpolished and has been abandoned to say the least. I will feel really disappointed if I need to pay another 50% for a MC update because right now I feel that this is not worth the price.

As the users posting before me - I really enjoy BB at general but for the reasons above I just don't feel that your current upgrade policy is doing justice to the loyal customers like me.

 

I'm fortunately not a costumer yet but will subscribe in a few days or weeks. As a new customer I feel that the cost is expensive but worth it.

I really feel bad for the other developers who are in this unfair situation and somehow it affects the way I'm thinking about Buildbox. Till now I was very excited and loved Buildbox for what it stands for. I love the forum here and the support we are given. The BB2 video made my decision very easy because it let's me do so much new things I thought about when using the BB1 trial that simply weren't possible yet. There is even more to it, I'm very excited to see what the Buildbox team comes up next. As other users said, Buildbox has no competition yet and for me, without Buildbox, there wouldn't be the slightest possibility to have developed any games. I tried with other software and simply couldn't do a thing in weeks or even months what I then did with BB in the first month. My decision to buy the software and to be a part of this movement is already made and I hope I can make my business grow the same way I see others succeed. The price strategy and the problems that came up now in this thread give me a bitter taste though and if the possibilities wouldn't be that awesome I would probably say no. It seems that the Buildbox team just does not have the necessary experience or vision to organise a proper and fair business model. If they could they would react now and take care of the customers who made them grow. This thread is evidence enough that long time users are not happy with the decisions and feel betrayed. This is not good at all and shows me that I actually shouldn't buy the software because there is a huge risk something can go wrong with the investment. In one year, when I will be one of the "old" customers, I definitely don't want to be in a similar situation. I can think of several things that can happen with a new and unexperienced business team like Buildbox. For example I imagine where the Buildbox team decides that the software is not valuable anymore or something similar and stop development completely. Because I never bought the software but subscribed I loose access to it completely. It would be a nightmare.

I see that Trey doesn't feel the same way and his responses in this thread show a certain arrogance regarding the situation. I don't think it's because Buildbox members are bad guys, but as I said, it seems more like a mistake or inexperience. It also shows that the community and the "movement-feeling" they have created doesn't really exist. Not when money is involved. It's a business - customer relation like anywhere else. Customers have absolutly no influence about the decisions that are made. Nonetheless, I really feel that we have a great opportunity here to create something special together. Customers and Buildbox, as a family. Something unique, where old and new users create a solid foundation for years to come. It would be a small price for Buildbox to pay since new users are subscribing every day. There is simply no reason why Buildbox should treat their existing customer the way they do and I hope they can re-think their strategy again. It really would be magic. A win-win situation if used right.

 

Just saw this thread. I've been working on updates for my game so missed this. I can understand why people are upset. I was upset too when I initially saw the price of BB compared to other game builders. But when you think of this from a business stand point, to me the price is fine. I mean, looking at a line of code is like looking at a line of Japanese. Yet, BB enabled me to create a game that has taken off world wide. And my team hasn't even started with their method of getting this game seen. We are holding off for a very important update that we are in the process of finishing today.

This game has guaranteed my ability to do this full time. That to me is priceless. Some have asked how I got with Fortafy Games. This I cannot say. But what I will say is I got creative. I reached out to many people and companies when I knew I had an A+ title. I didn't know anyone when I joined this community. I had been working with my partner since 2013 using GameSalad and got nowhere for the first few years.

Do you want to be successful in this business? You're not going to do it if you focus on being negative. I think Trey puts out valuable information and cares about his customers. And he's right he can't please everyone. Remember this is his business and he has the right to do what he thinks will work best for it and his customers. We are all adults and independent devs here. I'm not saying it's bad to voice your thoughts and concerns but don't let it take too negative of a turn.

It is our choice how we spend our money and use our time. Take ownership of that. If you can't afford BB 2 yet then make an A+ game with BB1. Many people were very surprised with what I made with it. You can make your future but the software won't do all the work for you. It makes it fast but ideas start within you. You want to make a hit game? You had better start learning many things. Some things I started learning were game theory, creative thinking techniques, color theory, etc. You need to always be working on developing yourself. the more you do that the closer you will be to making some hit games. What do you do after that? Then you need to polish and then shop it around. That's what Trey has been telling you guys. That's literally all I did to get my deal I have now. I shopped the game around to many people until I found someone who believe in it 100%.

You cannot focus on how someone runs their business. You need to focus on YOU. Focus on becoming a great game dev and becoming a more interesting person. When you become a more interesting person you will start making more interesting games. But everything starts with you. There are many challenges in life. But if you look at them as challenges and how to overcome them that's when you will make progress. Any situation on it's own is neutral. You are the one who makes it positive or negative. If you want to use BB 2 and can't afford it then think of how you CAN afford it. All it is is a challenge.

BB has honestly changed my life this month and I hope it will change yours too. I don't know about you all but I've tried my hand at many things in my 36 years. I've never been successful the way I would like. I failed in this business hundreds of times over there few years I've been in it. I've lost a lot of money. But I learned and adapted. It's not easy but if you stay focused on your dreams they will manifest. Don't stay focused on the bumps in the road stay focus on the mountain you need to scale on the horizon.

 

When I did my maths, I got that going for the subscription plan was the best option for 2 reasons:

- mobile OS life cycle : if Apple / Google update their OS once a year it makes sense that this tool must follow a close life cycle;
- being in an exploratory mode I wanted to reduce any possible "mistake";

Not to step into the owner's shoes but I would suggest a more "radical" approach...

For people who buy the full package, to have an annual "maintenance fee" that covers all the updates so, buying into a product is a one time thing and if people want the updates they would need to keep the "maintenance" alive. If they do not, then they will need to buy the full package from scratch...

I use different tools that have this model : Livecode, Ubot, etc.

The industry standard is about 10 to 20% of the original price (depending on the frequency of updates)

So this way nobody is unhappy: the company has buy-ins and it can keep counting on revenues to sustain future development.

Just my 2 cents.

 

My tuppence worth. Not so much to do with BB2 and pricing but whats not been happening leading up to this BUT what it means going forward and is this being addressed?

1. v1.3.6 or lack thereof. There are major issue with the current version and these have not been addressed in a timely manner which simply isn't good enough. Character selection issues and defeated animation looping as an example.

2. Documentation or lack thereof. The current version is stuck at 1.3.3 and there are major issues with the both the correctness and incompleteness never mind the shambles of content and indexing.

At the end of the day if BB are going to charge world class pricing THEN I EXPECT WORLD CLASS SERVICE.

 

iOS lifecycle etc, is what a game engine product has to guarantee to keep up with. You shouldn't pay extra to make sure the engine you purchased still works just because iOS was updated. It is part of what you buy. If the engine does not get updated with every new iOS requirement than the engine would be short lived and useless to start with

Also, you surely wouldn't want to pay a maintenance fee for bug updates (I know you didn't specifically mention bugs). You have the right to a software that is fit for purpose. If you buy it and bugs do not get fixed and bugs somehow stop you from experience what the product promises then the product is not fit for purpose and you can ask for a refund. It is the Software Company duty to deliver a working product and do bug updates and keep the software working against iOS updates.

If you buy the engine (instead subscribing) you are in a way paying for Feature Updates every time you buy a new version like BB2, BB3, BB4. The intermediate updates and improvements like 2.1, 2.5, etc... is the Company good will and respect for their business and their customers. E.g. you will see brand new features added to game engines like Unity and the others via Intermidiate Updates which do not require a purchase, a few new features/capabilities would not justify a brand new version. A brand new version e.g. BB4 has to offer substantial feature improvements.

In terms of Subscription against Buying it.
It depends on time frames...
If a totally new version comes out every two years (BB2, BB3, BB4...), or if it comes out after 18 months but you buy it after 24 months, then buying the software maybe better than subscribing
$99 x 24months = $2376
$999 x 2 years = $1998
Purchase = $2675
Buying: $300 more than $99 per month but if you stop using it, you still have license to it to update/make changes to your existing games. If you stop your subscription you cannot update/keep alive your existing games.

Indeed if you wanted to stop using BB after two years (move to other engine or whatever) but wanted to keep the old games alive for 1 more year to drive traffic to your new games, etc... it would cost you nothing if you had the Full License to start with but it would cost you an extra year of subscription to do that (extra $1188/$999 in case of subscription)
3 years use go BB where you happy with BB2 and do not need BB3
$99 x 36months = $3564
$999 x 3 years = $2997
Purchase from start = $2675

Case where around end of 2years (which is beginning of 3rd year) a new version comes out. (remember subscription is at least for 1 year)
$99 x 36months = $3564
$999 x 3 years = $2997
Original purchase $2675 + upgrade $1337 (assuming same prices a few years from now which is a big question mark) = $4012
NOTE: this may look like it works out too expensive over 3 years but this may be the wrong impression and here is why
If you upgrade end Year2/beginning Year3, you will probably want to make use of this engine and tweak your games-network-revenue-traffic for another chunk of 2 year. Therefore 3 years is only a transition and you should really look at 4 years. Look at it in 2 years chunks

I Mean after upgrading you want to make use of it for at least 2 year which has to be compared to 2 more years of subscription therefore:
$99 x 48months = $4752
$999 x 4 = $3996
Purchase $2675 + $1337 upgrade = $4012
So over 4 years (assuming current prices and 2 years cycles where you upgrade after 2 years) the $99 x month (12 months contract) works out more expensive, the $999 per year works out the same BUT both subscription stopped at this time would stop you from taking care of your games-portfolio... while the $4012 full license will allow you to keep your games going...


It really is down to how you foresee your business, choice, terms, if you start now with a new BB2 from start or half way through a cycle, etc... How important it is for you to be able to tweak earlier games after stopping using the engine... or maybe stopping for you means stopping the business all together therefore further tweaking is not necessary, etc...

I may be missing some consideration I was just typing this as I was thinking at some of the earlier posts above from other cool members of this forum.

For example in my case being here at the start of BB2 I am thinking to buy the license as I expect to release a good number of games with BB2 and would want to be able to tweak them in the future even in the case where maybe 2 years from now I do not upgrade to BB3 (I see no reason right now not to upgrade to BB3 of course)

So if you look at this as described above, then the pricing looks to be fair between Subscription and Purchase
- Subscription allows you lower monthly or yearly payment although over a number of years it may cost more or cost the same but have not perpetual license
- Buy right off. Not the best deal of the century because I think that buying it right off should actually be a bit cheaper than what it is now (compared to 2 years subscription)... own the license and if you stop you still have ability to tweak your games.

 

We feel your pain Phil-
Being long time customers that came in as early "Mastermind, and Master Collection" customers find it a bit of a bitter pill to swallow, having to pay this much for an upgrade when a monthly option was not on the table when we bought in. Will we continue with BB2 yes, we already have, we're comitted to the business, but how this particular upgrade has been presented does leave us feeling under appreciated as long time followers and customers - sorry Trey it just does.

While we understand the need to charge for updates in software, and are willing to pay for them, we feel the exisiting early bird customers like us seem to be getting a bit of the short end of the stick here, when you look at the original rollout dates, to when the monthly was offered, and now the upgrade. Previously we have always felt that we have been treated very fairly as early customers who jumped in early and accepted and worked with the expected bugs, glitches, and limitations but in this case we can't help but think there could have been a better solution offered that would work for both parties - just saying.

 

It is fine a line to walk to keep new and old customers in any business happy.

Adobe's master collection use to cost around $2,599 or less depending on programs but now $50 annual/monthly or $600 annual prepaid - STILL BLOWS ME AWAY! The entire collection of 20+ creative desktop and mobile apps including Photoshop CC and Illustrator CC. I know apples and oranges can't compare the two but Adobe CC is industry standard and I use it everyday.

As you can see below a loyal BB1ownership is priced closer to AAA type software compared to the 2d programs out there.

Here is a price break down of some of the most popular software out there:
BB1 early adopter Price: $4012 to have BB2
New User Price: $2675 or $99/monthly or $999 yearly
Ease of use, drag and drop, and no programming are the biggest features that make it so great. Hard to compare the BB to others on the market but you can the price. $999 is by far the best and safest option for a new user, will next year bring BB3?

Unity
Price: Mixed Tier Payment Model – Free / limited, $1,500 One-Time, or $75/month no splash screen and no mobile export
IOS: $1,500 One-Time, or $75/month
Android: $1,500 One-Time, or $75/month

Game Maker: Studio
Price: Tiered One-Time Payment Model – free / limited – $800 mobile/desktop export included

Construct 2
Price: Tiered One-Time Payment Model – $0 – $600 mobile/desktop export included

Game Salad
Price: Tiered Subscription Model – $0 – $300/year

A list of other software out there
http://www.pixelprospector.com/the-big-list-of-game-making-tools/

I purchased Game Studio Elite for $10,000, lol what was I thinking. Watched the video and I was sold. 6/7 months into the 2014 program BB1 was announced, Project Mayhem 2 that came with GSE was going to be fazed out. A beta version of pm2 was released with some much needed sound features but sadly I was told that the features never made the final end of life build. I stopped using it. I felt the same way you guys did back then only I had invested way more money. The end of life pm2 was around a year ago The program and the art never lived up to the launch video. I could use pm2 today as it has been maintained for iOS versions but falls short on features compared to BB1.

Everyone from GSE was given a copy of BB1 when it was released to help with our investment and I was super happy Like most new software BB1 contained a lot of bugs and the community pretty much alpha/beta tested BB1 for the first 6 months.

My BB1 experience has left a bad feeling in my stomach much like GSE. I'm stuck between wanting the new features and investing more time and money into something I love to do with my kids. I love buildbox and Andy / Sean have been awesome supporting us but don't know if I can stay loyal anymore on the current upgrade model. Early access programs usually have bugs and that is usually why they are priced at a discount before release. If bb2 is anything like the past I'm going to wait for a more mature product. I wish everyone well with their future projects.

 

I'd just like to add when I say Service I do not mean Support. The quality of support I have received via email from Sean has truly been exceptional and he should be congratulated for this. Well done Sean.

 

OK another tuppence worth. At the end of the day. If you don't feel you can recoup your investment in BB2 (or v1 for that matter) then game development might not be for you. As much as we get into this for the enjoyment of creation and fun the end goal for the majority of us is to have financial reward for our endeavours. BB quite simply makes this easier than any other platform. Yes it has its limitations (for now) but no other environment offers the ease of use. I'd rather be spending $2,675 or $1,337 or $99/mth to concentrate on MAKING GAMES than paying $400 or whatever on an alternative platform doing nothing more than spending days on end; TRAINING, LEARNING, CODING. For those who are blessed with uber programmer brains and can wrap their head around UNREAL, UNITY etc., great. For those of us lesser mortals. THANK HEAVENS FOR @TreySmith and the BUILDBOX TEAM.

 

I can't agree with you more. I would have never been able to get my first app published without BB. Support has been great. I tried a lesser product and I quickly found myself learning how to code. I do this as a hobby, but in my first two months I have published a game on Apple with in-app purchases and ads. (By myself no third party programmer) I built a second game on google play and I am finishing my third app that will be placed in both stores. Each one becoming more and more polished. I laid out the plans for my fourth app with BB2 and I am in the process of hiring an artist with a small budget. I started to see a revenue stream within my first two months. This way more than I have planned when I first started.

I can understand others concerns, but I am hoping they are starting to see a revenue stream from their work that pays for upgrades, artist and their next adventures.

 

Thank you Trey for considering my suggestion. $49 per month or $499 for the first year for the original BB1 owners is fair and just. Much appreciated!

 

Because of this new offer, I upgraded. Thank you.

 

I can appreciate that Buildbox has made efforts to satisfy the first generation of boxers with a deal on the subscription-based upgrade.
Honestly, I think I still want the full license version, mainly because many of the games I am making are games I want to be able to push updates to on a recurring basis. When January 2017 rolls around, I might still be pushing updates to a game I made with BB1 now (well, making now), and I want to able to not have to worry about not being able to go back and edit that original bbdoc for the game, so I see value in the full license and the ongoing support that comes with it.

 

What is this? I've now seen two posts referencing a $49 deal? Is this real?

 

Check your Inbox.

"......

Now any full license customer who purchased Buildbox 1.0 can upgrade to a subscription

and receive 50% off their first year. This lowers the upgrade price to $49 per month for the

first 12 months or $499 for the first year. ........."