No Love From Voodoo :(

Discussion in 'Buildbox General Discussion' started by VectologyGames, Sep 20, 2018.

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  1. jerry

    jerry Avid Boxer

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    @TreySmith Green Panda reached out to me and gave me a call early in the week on Launch of Trixel Rocket and then the head of publishing loved the game and we just had a call this morning! It came out that my game is a Buildbox game and then he just shut down!! They have no love of Buildbox games. He said he loved what I did, the polish of the game, and would like to work with me if I move to using Unity!!

    So this is just a note of my VERY limited experience with publishers so far. Voodoo has reached out to me as well (I'm not contacting them) but I am assuming the conversation will be the same.
     
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  2. itzonator

    itzonator Serious Boxer

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    @jerry did they (Green Panda) explain why they do not like Buildbox games? What aspects of it?
     
  3. TreySmith

    TreySmith Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey guys, really appreciate this feedback. Even if it's negative about things I'm doing, or we're doing as a company. It all helps us grow and eventually shapes the software. You guys are great and I appreciate the honestly and passion you guys have on this topic. Keep it coming.

    Now let's talk about how to fix it.

    Few things here, because I'm hearing a LOT! A lot of passionate responses, some contradicting, but this -- I believe -- is the jist of it.

    Correct me if I am wrong:

    Buildbox 2:

    - We think you are abandoning Buildbox 2 and possibly 2D Gaming

    (I think there was some confusion here. We are still coming out with 2.3.7 and will be also doing multiple bug fix releases for this. I guess potentially it could, and probably will, go beyond 2.3.7, so I apologize for making that confusing... Our plans were to quit adding additional new features to 2.0, but not cease updating and supporting the software. We'll support 2.X for an extended period just like we've done in the past)

    - We want Push Button Publisher integration in BB2, and we think that will solve UA publisher concerns

    (I felt the issue was deeper than this, if that is truly the fix, then we're happy to do it. My concern was that we accidentally create a scenario where larger publishers are getting mass submitted low quality games that don't meet their criteria. I've emailed both Lion Studios and Voodoo for clarification of their preference. If it's as simple as needing SDK, then we will do it asap).

    - We want X feature in BB2 for retention, and we think that will solve UA publisher concerns

    (Again, I personally felt that the issue was deeper than adding achievements, etc. I've emailed Lion/Voodoo for clarification. If the main request is something simple like achievements, instead of something more complex like 3D, drawing, and advanced gameplay with destructible environments, then we'll gladly assist)

    Buildbox 3:

    - We think BB3 will be potentially difficult to use

    (Probably the most confusion part of BB3 so far has been the lack of documentation and in-application training. This will be changing with Beta 3. We're working on a custom solution for this we'll unveil with beta 3, and we believe this will VASTLY increase the understanding of the software. You'll be able to answer questions and learn the software solely by using it.)

    - We think BB3 won't come out for a long time

    (We understand that you guys, as well as publishers, want more control of the software. We're pushing extremely hard to make this happen, and we are moving fast. October 1st we'll have Beta 3, which we plan to be completely useable for 3D games, and we'll soon follow up with Beta 4 with 2D, and of course the final release before the end of the year. Those dates are hard set and we are on target).

    Question for you

    The one thing I would like clarification on is "We want X feature in BB2 for retention, and we think that will solve UA publisher concerns".

    There seems to be a recurring theme here, where you guys feel if we just added one or two fairly simple features, then UA publishers would have no issue with spending money promoting Buildbox 2.X games. It would be great if you could specifically lay out what these features are. I've heard achievements, but would love to get more specific answers. As stated previously, I'm not sure I agree that is what these larger UA publishers only need, but I definitely would like to explore it more.
     
  4. AaroArts

    AaroArts Miniboss Boxer

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    Thank you for taking the time to comment and thank you for clarifying that 2.3.7 will continue to get support, updates and bug fixes.
    I believe this was a large concern for many people using BB professionally.
     
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  5. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    We really have no idea what the publishers want. We just want parity between Buildbox and Unity in the area of UA and retention. And to be honest, we don't need to know. We just want our games to be accepted and if we do get rejected, it's because of the game itself, not the software it was made with.
     
  6. itzonator

    itzonator Serious Boxer

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    @TreySmith here are some ideas of what publishers want, when it comes to retention and UA:

    1. Publishers want BuildBox games to be ported to Unity. So, if there's a way to do that, fine, but those who port to Unity are on their own, since there's additional learning curve and probably one must know coding. As far as I am concerned Unity uses C# for development on cross platform, but not quite 100% sure.

    2. Publishers want better scoring system. For example, if the player reaches a certain destination and goes to a certain point, they should be able to execute "perfect scores" with nice animations. If an action on character move is executed nicely, the player should be able to see that visually. Like changing colors when scoring, adding animation to collected score, etc., even going further, the character to change colors or animations when the character's action is nicely executed. When the action by the character is executed nicely in the game, there should be some kind of visual effect: flash, shake, character changes in terms of colors / animations, better score labels.

    3. Publishers want to reward the users with a lot of rewards in the game. BuildBox poorly executes such instances, and one I can do is only Event Observer where I can set the session points to X, and when the player reaches those points, on Game Over the reward would show up, but that's not sufficient, because if we add timing between rewards, a new Event Observer would overlay the old one, so the timing becomes useless. Buildbox needs a better "reward player" system - not just collecting points and coins :)

    4. Publishers want color-changing themes in games. I do not have much experience creating color switching / changing games here in Buildbox, but it seems like publishers want that more today. So if BuildBox is optimized to change colors certain elements in the game or allowing to, then the game can be more publisher friendly.

    5. @Christoph suggestion - levelling up. When the player can level up and upgrade the character or difficulty increases over time. Infinite random levels with progression built in. It also means that the score gets higher each level.

    That's pretty much,
    Itzo
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  7. TheGameAppStudio

    TheGameAppStudio Serious Boxer

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    Hi,I agree to your points 1 and 3 .Where as 2 and 4 can be achieved by using certain tricks but for a drag and drop software its time consuming adding more memory.
    But strongly support point no 3 : Voodoo once told me that though they liked my game the game lacks lot of reward points (Which is the main thing for user retention) Most of the games published by voodoo has lot of power-ups rewards etc so that user could upgrade the character or the game theme based on those rewards which make users coming again and again.
    Well a high quality high functional game according to me is a Myth :p When closely observed you can find those hit games by Ketchapp,Voodoo and other popular publishers has major design flaws .Either in Ui or game objects and character etc...Its the game play that makes users play.Make an easy game or never dying/ending game and reward with tons of game coins i am sure that this game would be successful.The major drawback according to me is providing game users more rewards....
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  8. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    Yeah. I think it’s a tricky question. We were discussing it yesterday for a long time and it’s actually very difficult to answer.

    The window is gone. Buildbox should have reacted to the market when hyper casual came up and this was over a year and a half back. But instead, the development has been focused on MC2. We pointed it out in December when MC2 came out but weren’t heard and the forum even was ‘shut down’ because our rebellion.

    Now it’s very late to react to the new market’s needs and bb3 is a good thing but I fear that until it’s out the market will have shifted again.

    So if Buildbox is the hyper casual engine and we cannot do hyper casual on it, then we’re pretty much stranded. Itzonator is pointing out good points but I don’t see them implement easily. It’s just not how Buildbox works.

    If you ask me, i would point out as the first and most important point leveling up. Can you implement that in Buildbox 2? I doubt it. Is it planned for Buildbox 3? I didn’t see it.

    Leveling up means infinite random levels with progression built in. It also means that the score gets higher each level. It means that we can show both visually too. We can do this now manually but it’s a pain to do it. For prototyping it’s okay. But we cannot make infinite levels and randomization is very limited. Also. Going over 25 levels makes the game very slow and suffering memory issues. It’s just not the way we should be doing it.

    Then next point in my humble opinion is if/then component with variables. If we don’t have that we cannot add anything related to rewards. And again, as itzonator pointed out this is very important for retention. Rewards need multiplier in game and players need to be told that they are doing things well. Lots of animations are needed and this is not officially supported in Buildbox. Instead of adding animationbox into Buildbox you guys were more interested in selling a separate product with MC2. Again this has been a wrong decision and we see now the consequences. So I doubt that this is as well something that now could be changed. The question is: can you add the if/then component in characters, objects and actions accessing all the variables we already are manipulating?

    And after that Idk. There are many things that make Buildbox limited. So thinking about it I honestly don’t see any solutions. But as Mike says it’s not our job either. We only can give feedback and it’s you guys who listen or not. We just want/need a competitive software. And when you advertise it as such then it better should work.

    A definitely good way for us to at least be satisfied with what we have is to comply with the old promises of fixing the bugs. Buildbox 2.3.7 beta is full of it. There are a lot of things not working like they should and are broken. I myself reported dozens of it and every time I start a new game or prototype I come across new ones.

    And we were promised fixes for a long time now. With weekly updates since January. If there is interested for the support of it like you say why haven’t they gotten fixed yet? Why didn’t the weekly updates become true?

    For me it’s a must now to move away from Buildbox. I just doesn’t make sense to keep using a product that I cannot make the games I want to or that my publishers want. The problem I have is time. My knowledge of Buildbox is so extensive that to do what I’m capable now in Buildbox in unity will take a long time. I’m not even sure if this at this time is viable.

    Here’s a silly question but it has been around for a longer time now:
    Have you guys thought about making Buildbox a Unity plug-in? If we could build our games as fast as we do in Buildbox and would then be able to move away from it like with Playmaker, well that would be a game industry changer.

    It’s like what itzonator said. If we could easily port our games to Unity all problems would be solved (all but the scene based building problems).

    Hope that helps but in short, the solution has to come from you guys. We don’t have the technical knowledge to make real proposals of what to do now. We just can point out the problems.
     
  9. TheGameAppStudio

    TheGameAppStudio Serious Boxer

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    I strongly support this Idea .Its would be a game changer and a win-win for us all (That includes Team Buildbox too... ) :)
     
  10. manupr

    manupr Boxer

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    this is an interesting thread. i know a little on this and this similar to what trey said. publishers pour in millions on games.they spend around 50.000$ a day to put your game in top 10. think of the risk they are taking with a random developer from somewhere in the world. with such risks they want to make sure every experiment on a game is possible. even a small change can make a game from loss to profitable. that is why they dont want to have a situation where they ask you to implement weird feature and you say you cant because of the engine...
    with unity..almost anything is possible and so it is safe for publishers today.

    with bb3 it might take time to gain that trust and trust is not gained in one day... with more devs making a new successful game bb3 might get well known and accepted.
     
  11. TreySmith

    TreySmith Administrator Staff Member

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    Ok, thanks for the feedback guys. In short, Buildbox 3.0 solves every single request listed in this thread, which is why we are laser focused on it's production. In the meantime, if you guys have a deal with a UA publisher who needs something in 2.0, please let us know and we'll try to assist. Some of the thing mentioned here could potentially be solved by support.

    Also, as for future proofing... The way Nik built 3.0 is completely expandable. There will be nothing you can do in Unity, but not Buildbox 3. I think some of you don't know that. You will not run into any issue where a feature is impossible to implement, regardless if it's about gameplay expansion, points system, or more. It can all be built with coding if it's not natively available.
     
  12. TreySmith

    TreySmith Administrator Staff Member

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    Also, as for updated timelines... Beta 3 in October, Beta 4 with 2D in November, Release in December.
     
  13. wesam_badr

    wesam_badr Miniboss Boxer

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  14. Snipering

    Snipering Boxer

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    @TreySmith does that mean BB2 2 has no expandability like nodes etc or will the nodes/scripting be incorporated through bb3 when bb2 is introduced into it as this is still a big part that you can do in unity and 2d will always be a big part in mobile gaming its not alk about 3d
     
  15. itzonator

    itzonator Serious Boxer

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    @TreySmith What do you mean by this, can you clarify?

    "There will be nothing you can do in Unity, but not Buildbox 3"
     
  16. swiftcurrent

    swiftcurrent Avid Boxer

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    Can't wait to be able to create AR games in Buildbox, just as I can do it in Unity.
     
  17. McGee Technologies

    McGee Technologies Boxer

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    @jerry That sucks man, I love seeing Trixel Rocket. Such a well crafted and polished game, its unfortunate that all major publishers have blacklisted Buildbox games. I wish BB2 would get updated with the features that publishers want but I understand @TreySmith point about it not solving all the problems associated with going to a publisher. However, at least we would know that a game is rejected due to software or if it was rejected to it being crap. Which is a hard pill to swallow but that's business. Sink or swim.
     
  18. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    Edit: I think I just need a break. Forget about what I said.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  19. adrogdesigns

    adrogdesigns Avid Boxer

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    Well, just goes to show, as @Christoph just said, I think I need a break.
    Trey, your letting a great product slide, BB2 is and could be better.
    You just jumped the gate with bb3, marketing strategy? For sure, keep users hanging around waiting. Which is cool, I waited a while when I heard bb3 was coming. I was about to ditch Buildbox, then thought ill wait for bb3.
    But then, bb2 stopped, fixes weren't being updated, support turned to crap, Hey im still waiting for a response on an issue I had four months ago, but hey don't worry, ive unsubscribed so I don't need that support.
    Its been a while waiting for updates on bb2.
    So many little things broken, action SFX, advanced movement, event observers, No updates on advertisers SDK's
    Hey Applovin have been doing banner ads for about a year now, but hey you cant add them in Buildbox, unless you know code!!
    These are just a few, theres many more throughout the forum, you asked for users to point out what they want added and fixed.
    Read the forum? there all in there somewhere....
    But its just viscous circle repeating itself, ive said it before so im not going to bother again.
    And Trey, if you seriously think BB3 can and will be able to do what Unity can do, then your living the dream buddy.
    Maybe one day (years) it will. But you are far far far off bb3 ever getting close to what Unity can do.
    Javascript, hahah, its ok for HTML5 games, but 3D? seriously..
    OBJECTS, Really? Until you incorporate FBX bb3 will remain years behind.
    Sometimes the easy way of doing things can create a lot more work, shortcuts never pay off.
    Anyway wish Buildbox all the best and maybe one day I will be proven wrong, and may come back.
     
  20. thatguyminib

    thatguyminib Serious Boxer

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    Not to be mean or anything but I don't think BB3 will ever be up to the standards of what Unity can do or will ever surpass it. Now, this isn't saying anything against you guys at all, it comes down to you all being a MUCH smaller studio/company than Unity and will never really be able to catch up. Unity has a collab feature/source control built inside of it, unity now has a visual scripting to create your own shaders, Unity also has a HUGE API that is really wide open, so wide open that you can actually edit the editor itself. Sure eventually BB3 will be at a great point where people can open it up and use it no problem, but sadly that isn't now.

    I honestly feel like the main focus for you guys is the node system and bug fixes. When I image BB3 a codeless game engine I imagine being able to open up the software create an object go into the nodes, have a HUGE list of nodes that do multiple various things, interact with each other and are titled as such that anyone can understand them.

    I just feel at this point those should be the main focus. Sure javascript and documentation would be awesome and if you guys open up a lot of the API then it could be amazing, but nodes and a scriptless/codeless game engine was your main focus from the beginning and I think BB3 kinda lost touch with that. I feel right now people don't have enough smart assets, nodes or info about javascript API to create a game that would be worth putting out and selling. When I open it I don't feel like I can do 90% of things I want with the nodes and I also don't feel as if the nodes interact with each other very well either.

    So, in conclusion, I do not feel like the main focus should be on Ad implementation, any sort of analytics, or any of the last 10% that go into making a game. 90% of making a game consists of creating the core game loop and adding great game feel/polish as well as features that will expand upon your core loop.
     
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