No Love From Voodoo :(

Discussion in 'Buildbox General Discussion' started by VectologyGames, Sep 20, 2018.

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  1. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    Yes. I really would like an answer to this too. It seems it’s just getting ignored and played down by others.

    But 2.3.x is what we are paying for. Buildbox 3 is nice and as others say it might rock one day. But to be honest, I couldn’t care less right now. Buildbox 3 is in beta and will be there for a long time. I see it functional for next year. Summer maybe. This is why I asked for a clear reply. Maybe I’m completely wrong on it but hyper casual is now a thing. Not in 2019. And it was already a thing in 2017 by the way. As was UA publishing. We literally started to test with Voodoo in August 2017.

    It’s a pitty that we only get more and more promises that probably never will get full filled. When it does then it’s amazing. But right now Buildbox 3 is simply not usable.

    And don’t get me wrong. I’m not dissing bb3. After all it’s in beta. But what really counts is Buildbox 2. I’m not paying for a beta just to make this very clear.
     
  2. McGee Technologies

    McGee Technologies Boxer

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    when you talk about 2.3.7 do you mean is it going to get some of these features going into BB3? or just curious whats to come for 2.3.7 when theres a ton of focus on BB3? In my honest opinion, I doubt 2.3.7 will be getting any of those features as that is primarily focused for BB3.
    It's crazy that this news just came up about voodoo. I was working with them earlier this month and did all the integration stuff and what not and everything was great, they are amazing to work with but it will be so much easier when BB3 is complete.
     
  3. AaroArts

    AaroArts Miniboss Boxer

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    I’m referring primarily to bug fixes for 2.3.7.

    As @Christoph mentioned above. I’m (as many others) are currently paying for a BB2 subscription, not for the previledge of testing beta Software.

    And while I LOVE Buildbox and BB3 looks to have incredible potential one day, as things stand, I pay for Buildbox 2, therefore I think known issues and existing bugs should be fixed for people who already pay for this software.

    I do appreciate all the hard work and as I always say Buildbox is an amazing tool, but I just don’t want 2.3.7 beta to get forgotten until BB3 is useable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  4. micdune

    micdune Boxer

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    Spot on AaroArts and Christoph.
     
  5. swiftcurrent

    swiftcurrent Avid Boxer

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    No love from Voodoo, Lion, Green Panda, Kwalee and much more. EVEN Appsolute asks for porting to U**** for doing UA. It felt horrible when I started pitching my game to publishers and I got the same reply: "will you be able to port the game to U****?" T_T

    Still no 2.3.7. In two weeks, maybe?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  6. adrogdesigns

    adrogdesigns Avid Boxer

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    Exactly, 100% agree with you. Thats the exact reason I canceled my subscription with Buildbox and moved on.
    BB2 has come to a complete halt, And was tired of paying for it.
    Ive enjoyed working with Buildbox to create games, was lucky enough to get features in the stores and im grateful for that.
    But as it stands its pointless.
    No offence to BB, but time wasted with bugs and waiting for updates, is money wasted.
    BB3 looks great, and I did play around with it a bit, but in a real world its a while of being ready to create a game that can compete with other game engines.
    And I know for a fact as it stands top publishers won't touch a game made in Buildbox.
    Ive been contacted by the top 5 publishers and asked if would like to test my games with them. As soon as they find outl my games are made in Buildbox, there answer is port them to U**** and get bak to us.
    When I say that, I mean they won't touch a BB game thats made in the version of BB that we get to use.
    All games made by Buildbox that have been published with top publishers (Ketchapp) were all special builds that have never been released to its users. Is that fair, I don't think so.
     
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  7. jmiller8031

    jmiller8031 Avid Boxer

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    I don’t think they have the man power to constantly update BB2 and 3 at the same time. BB2 is kind of pointless to support at this point. Anything that can be made with it has already been made since it’s so limited. No one is going to get a big publishing deal with a BB2 game at this point or anything.

    If you’re upset that you’re paying for it, well I’ve been paying $99/month since February to support BB3 development and don’t have a fully usable game engine yet either. So the argument can go both ways. I’ll continue to pay because I like where they’re going with it, but it would be really nice to be able to actually make a game by now.
     
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  8. swiftcurrent

    swiftcurrent Avid Boxer

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    HAHA, in before the forum link will disappear again.
     
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  9. adrogdesigns

    adrogdesigns Avid Boxer

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    Well BB2 is not really pointless to support, It should be supported and Its not being supported, for the exact reason you said, no man power.
    There is still many game plays you can make, but bb needs some small tweaks to make this happen.
    But they have just abandoned bb2, end of story. Full concentration is with BB3.
    And I get that, but get one product right first.
    If they just fixed BB2 to be 95% bug free everyone would be happy.
    I would be happy, Ive abandoned 5 games that ive spent over 3 months on each game, cause I was waiting for bugs to be fixed.
    Because I know if I was to finish them and publish them it would be pointless. They wouldn't perform well I store.
    And as for continuing to pay, well im glad you have money to waste,
    I like where there going with bb3, but seriously, I would rather give that money to my kids than treys kids, whilst I wait for bb3 to be done, or wait for updates to bb2.
     
  10. micdune

    micdune Boxer

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    Maybe hire a few more people? It's not like it's a free service, we pay for the software.
     
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  11. particles

    particles Avid Boxer

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    Bug Fixes for BB2, so that existing customers won't get affected.
    Development for BB3, so that we can compete with current market trends.

    I felt both are important, can be executed parallelly. Mainly allocating resources.
     
  12. itzonator

    itzonator Serious Boxer

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    I am sure @TreySmith and @NikRudenko are doing their best to bring a good work around of BuildBox 3.0.

    To be honest, I feel pity for Voodoo and all other major publishers out there to blacklist BuildBox 2 at this point, because they are missing one major point. Sure they test and have their internal system for submitting and testing games (I am talking about Voodoo), but they are limited to their "Skeleton method" "Zoning", etc., and games can be created in completely different ways/methods BuildBox 2 currently supports. This is a true BuildBox censorship for some reason, maybe they do not like Trey, you know ;-)

    Sure, Voodoo do what works for them, but what works for them is not creating games, but spending a lot of money financing games. Voodoo look like amateurs, and most of them can't speak English well :) If it's true that Voodoo got support from Goldman Sachs (for 200M) that means Voodoo are not even spending their own money for ads, but bank cartel's money. Goldman Sachs right now, rules the world financially. What Goldman Sachs basically does is to take over banks and other financial institutions for more control. They are like a financial cancer, spreading, taking over. They are a true bank cartel. So if Voodoo got their support, then there's something fishy going on here. There must be some kind of agenda.

    Voodoo are so caught up in money, promotions and ad spent, they are blinded to see beyond that, to see other methods for creating games.

    I played most games by Voodoo on the top charts and I can tell 90% are crap, but still in the top charts and trending. How's that possible? Well, the only reason they are at the top of the App Store is that they have figured an audience to promote heavily via Facebook Ads and as Trey said, they spent millions of dollars to promote those games. Who can compete with that?

    Game retention and user acquisition does not always mean a good game, you know. :) Game Retention and UA often manipulate gamer's consciousness to play games like that to generate profits and revenue. Maybe some sort of NLP and game hypnosis are involved for gamers to play crappy games (like color changes in games, they are hypnotic and mess up your brain - and yes you want more of that, but it's not necessarily fun in a true sense) - and of course, I am not talking about Color Switch ;-)

    One thing is for sure, the Top Games on the App Store are NOT the best ones out there, and Voodoo counts on that!

    LIKE, if you feel the same way about Voodoo :) - so that I know I am not crazy to see that - probably others do not. :D

    Cheers,
    Itzo
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  13. adrogdesigns

    adrogdesigns Avid Boxer

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    Ummmmm, game retention 1000% means its a good game, you make a crap game you are not going to have any retention lol.
    And yea user acquisition doesn't mean its a good game, but without it your not going anywhere.
    and seriously Voodoo are missing out by not taking games made in bb? Why?
    They have the power to pick and choose.
    And without them your games are not going to make you a living. they may make you some pocket money, and thats it.
    An Appstore feature, yea thats some more pocket money.
    But The top 5 publishers pick up your game , that will make you a living, and if you want to make games for a living you need that publisher deal.
    Also to make game and succeed, and do it for a living, it will never happen from a Buildbox game, until they start supporting it properly, and adding the features needed.
    It will and might happen one day, but its a long way off.
     
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  14. itzonator

    itzonator Serious Boxer

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    Sure, game retention is important to make money, but I am talking about the psychology behind that. By "good game" you probably mean "profitable game" to make a living. Sure I agree with that 1000%. This does not mean it's a "good game" to have fun. There are some hacks and tricks to hack people's brain to make it addictive. This has been studied in NLP and hypnosis a lot and I think Voodoo is implementing that into their rules to publish games. What the color change has to do with making the game more adventurous? Nothing, it simply resets the game's consciousness to keep the gamer engaged. It had nothing to do with user having fun, they are under hypnosis. It's really spooky. That's why they come back for more (retention). You play adventurous/fun game, not because you want to relax and sit back for a minute, fun game is about working hard to beat it, no matter what. Voodoo games bring a lot of rewards, instant gratification, pattern interrupt for more attention, etc. to make the simple games addicting. Voodoo games are not fun, they hack the brain for profits :)

    Yes, Voodoo has the power to choose and filter out developers, if they hadn't, they would not have been successful. I am just saying BuildBox landed a good mark on the market to be completely ignored, no matter how fast things are involving in the game business.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  15. Codifie

    Codifie Avid Boxer

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    Publishers have been very clear on the reasons they do not want BB2 submissions, and when you see their reasoning it is curious why the BB team hasn't jumped on it for BB2. They are not complaining about the quality of games coming from BB2, they are complaining about the analytics side of BB2.
    Frankly I don't care about BB3 Beta. The BB Team is doing what they need to do, creating BB3, to stay competitive in the market. But I am not paying for BB3, it isn't useable and won't be for some time. The BB team is late in the game with their 3D concept and by the time it is capable of producing quality bug free games it will be even later. BB3 doesn't do me any good and doesn't do anyone any good at this point since it isn't useable.
    What the publishers want isn't anything that BB2 can not do if the BB Team put their focus on simply adding the analytics that Publishers have requested. The hooks need to be added, since the publishers are not complaining about the quality of BB2 games, they are simply stating they need the analytics. Seems to me that this would be fairly easy to add , especially since the team is hard at work adding it to BB3.
    The constant updates in the forums in regards to BB3 is good for those that care, but as I stated, it isn't useable, and for those of us trying to figure out new angles to use BB2 and produce quality games, we need support. After all this is what we are paying for, and the BB team not reacting to what publishers have requested seems like the BB team has silently told us that we are SOL. This doesn't make sense to me since this is your bread butter as of today and the requests made by publishers isn't something new. Many have been asking for better BB2 analytics for some time now. Seeing videos of @TreySmith and @NikRudenko producing games using BB3 doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling, in fact, the exact opposite. This same time could have been used fixing BB2 so it can continue to be a powerhouse, instead it has been left on the wayside and appears to be considered dead by the BB team.
    As it is today, and it appears I am not the only one, I am looking at going back to coding or using Unity. I switched to BB because it was simply more efficient and at the time the support was wonderful. Today I can not say the same thing.
    The BB Team is well aware that BB3 is still months and months away from being a useable solution, yet they continue to push it and market it in Youtube videos as if it is ready for use and the new answer for BB. Sadly, it is not, and as I said earlier, it is very late coming into the 3d realm and is in fact not even useable. Does BB need BB3, yes, to survive and be part of the future, but that doesn't mean you drop your current user supported BB2. The BB team need to take a hard look at their current strategy, putting all your eggs into the BB3 basket while causing angst among your BB2 subscribers doesn't seem to make sense. The BB team is well aware of why BB2 games are no longer being supported by publishers, so why not fix the issue so BB2 can continue to be used by paying users. Even worse, most of us knew these same issues that Publishers are now complaining about, yet nothing has been done, all resources have been moved to a Beta product that does nothing to solve the BB2 issues as of today. And these same issues will remain while we are told to wait, BB3 will fix everything. This is a great marketing technique for BB3, but waiting and doing nothing isn't the answer developers want to hear.

    So, that is the choice we have been given. Wait and use BB3 or continue to produce using BB2, which we now know will not be supported by Publishers and the BB team will not update to support what the Publishers have requested. Seems like a no brainer to me and feels like the BB team has turned their backs on BB2.

    I firmly believe the BB team can do whatever they want. Its their company after all. It just doesn't make good business sense to me. But it is what it is. Users have voiced their opinions. Thats all we can do. I for one now need to decide what route I want to take for future projects rather than sit here an wait or whine repeatedly about the BB team I hold the power to my own destiny. I personally feel that waiting is not the right choice for me. I still believe BB2 is a good product and with the right analytic data hooks added it could meet or even surpass what the publishers are looking for. But that is just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  16. AndyG

    AndyG Miniboss Boxer

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    I stated this back in January (via Zack on a Skype call) that what we needed NOW was the ability to compete with the feature set being implemented by all the major Publishers. Here we are some 9 months later and the situation has got even worse to the point of critical where various Publishers are now point blank refusing to do business with anyone who has a Buildbox created game. For sure test with us but unless you have the facility to recreate that game using Unity we're not moving forward on it.

    Right now. TODAY. In BB2 all the existing customer base MUST have the ability to implement EASILY the SDK's that Voodoo etc., require AND very importantly the FEATURES they require also to improve and maintain retention.

    If that delays BB3 I do not have an issue with that at all and I suspect neither do many others. We have all been working in BB2 for months creating games and trying to get Publishers and now we're stuck in limbo where we cannot get deals with those Publishers using Buildbox and BB3 is not in a place that we can build new games and importantly thats not just about 3D but 2D also.

    BB2 has to be 100% game Publisher capable TODAY.
     
  17. Codifie

    Codifie Avid Boxer

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    100% agree. This isn't a new problem and has been communicated, as you stated, months ago and ignored.
    Not fixing this situation immediately is slap to the paying customers face that is really hard to ignore, and shame on us if we continue to ignore it.
     
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  18. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    It's not only analytics, its as well some additional features every big publisher will ask you for to implement in order to increase retention. For example user feedback for scoring, multiplier, infinite leveling up. I think the first two could be solved with a if/then feature (which would open up so many new gameplays and game enhancements. The third Idk but it's essential for a hyper casual game and its monetization. A good javascript node might work for it but as it seems not even BB3 is going to support it.

    We have made the Buildbox team aware of this missing features since we are working in the industry and I'm pretty sure they are aware even without us reporting them. But we mostly get ignored and they are simply not interested. Even with smaller features.

    Buildbox 2 could be easily the 2D software that rocks the entire market together with Voodoo, Lion Studio and other publishers but the Buildbox team never have seen that potential. I really don't understand why.

    And it's okay, they are in charge of their own business strategy and we only can decide to keep going with it or not like @Codifie said very well. This is not the first time a situation like that arises and this is why I said that I feel stupid. But what I really can't stand, and I have said that before, even in personal messages to BB members including Trey, the way Buildbox is sold to us developers. If you promise certain things, then comply with them. As simple as that. Weekly updates? Do them. Make it THE hyper casual engine? Do it, but with the product you have rocking the market now, not the product that will be available in 1 year. Fixing specific bugs? Get them done already.

    Now it - once again - just feels like the Buildbox team is trolling and making fun of us. Watching Treys new videos showing off his success while we are waiting for bugs being fixed is simply the worst thing I have ever seen in marketing. And don't get me wrong, I understand that this is getting new customers in. A lot. And this is great. But for us loyal and paying customers it's just a kick in the arse.

    And you know what? Since I'm working with Buildbox (3 years now I believe) this has been said: I'm paying for the software to support the development because I like where this is going to. It's repeating history. We had the exact same situation with Buildbox 1 to Buildbox 2. I myself really don't have the money to support a development. I pay for a product I'm trying to use professionally. Buildbox 2 is the tool I chose, and I believe that with little effort and new features it still could be very very competitive.

    Just my two cents.
     
  19. Codifie

    Codifie Avid Boxer

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    [QUOTE="Now it - once again - just feels like the Buildbox team is trolling and making fun of us. Watching Treys new videos showing off his success while we are waiting for bugs being fixed is simply the worst thing I have ever seen in marketing. And don't get me wrong, I understand that this is getting new customers in. A lot. And this is great. But for us loyal and paying customers it's just a kick in the arse.
    [/QUOTE]

    lol...I had the exact same feeling. I watched a new video of Trey shopping, hoping it was going to go some where. The second he mentioned BB3 I was pissed and shut it down. I steer away from the new videos now because it just pisses me off.

    The marketing technique is working. Follow the forums, new users are streaming in, based on BB3, and pissed when it doesn't work. People tell them it is in Beta and shouldn't expect more, which is true, but in the videos it is presented as the solution to 3D for Buildbox, which it will be but still a lot of work for it to become useable. But users are coming, which I guess the videos are supposed to do.

    But yeah, I feel your pain with the kick in the arse statement.
     
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  20. Jackazoid

    Jackazoid Boxer

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    This is a "Drop everything you're doing" situation for the Buildbox team.
    (Including BB3D)
     
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