Fortafy Games Accused Of Plagiarization.

Discussion in 'Buildbox General Discussion' started by wesam_badr, Mar 2, 2018.

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  1. zoobi

    zoobi Boxer

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    guys anyone copy from anyone
    So you can have a copyright on dance move and not for gameplay or game mechanism ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shariki - this was the first match 3 game, after that came bejeweled and candy crush
    Dont talk about everyone copy everyone is gameplay design ideas and animations

    I would like to add all 1010 games are sure stolen the idea of the tiles from Tetris Which Tetris is copyrighted game and copyrighted design, and no one even say a word about it !
     
  2. brakewind723

    brakewind723 Serious Boxer

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    @Christoph Ok so I’m kinda seeing your perspective a bit better! It is a bit different from Fortnite since that eating and dancing are essential aspects after playing the game again.
    Copyright is a can of worms I never want to open.
     
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  3. OneHitGamer

    OneHitGamer Miniboss Boxer

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    Disney straight up owns Star Wars 1000 percent. So they can do what they want lol
    I think there is no def answer here. If you do it, you will just be shamed. Having a character dance a move, which is meant for people to do, is fine. Taking a bird from another artist and mimicking it only with better visuals...is just plain copycatin, lol
     
  4. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    I don't understand what everyone is confused about. THEY CLEARLY LIFTED THE ENTIRE ESSENCE OF THE ARTIST WORK. People are so afraid of just being honest. They stole the dancing pigeon because they thought no one would notice, now everyone is afraid to call a crook a crook. There is no "model and improve" to be had here.
     
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  5. Benfont

    Benfont Avid Boxer

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    I agree with Vectology here, this is a clear case of plagiarism - there is no model and improve because there is no improvement at all.
    The developer in this case copied the exact same movements from the original artist without permission nor crediting him.
    if I was the artist in this case, I would have reacted in the same way.
     
  6. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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    They stole the composition and animation style, but they did improve the art style. So they did model and improve the art style at the very least, but I think you are right to say that this should not eclipse the fact that they ripped off the composition and animation style.
    Copyrights and trademarks should be respected by game designers/developers/publishers, and the best way to do that is to try to create something new, restricting the "model and improve" purview to game tasks/mechanics and art styles. Exact rip offs of animation style or composition do not amount to something new.
    There is no one "status" of "model and improvement" that a game either has or does not have, because a game is composed of so many elements, each of which can be modeled and improved.
    However, there are ethical ways to model and improve a particular game element or combination of game elements, and exact rip offs of multiple game elements (e.g. composition structure of the pigeon character and its dance animation style) from one original source (the original creation of that specific dancing pigeon that we are referring to) is an unethical move, one that will always be unethical no matter how good the graphic style was, and no matter how improved the graphic style was.
     
  7. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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    There is some flexibility, presumably, in some aspects of character movement, that should not go overlooked, I think.
    Pigeon Pop does rip off the dance and composition of the structure of the pigeon. It does not rip off the graphic style.
    I want to preface my next point by saying that I like both Slippy Slopes and your game Arctic Smash. However, the primary model and improvement of Arctic Smash on Slippy Slopes is the change in graphic style, and the change in some of the content included in the game, as well as changes in obstacle design and difficulty design.
    Returning to your argument about character movement, and my suggestion that maybe there is some flexibility in some aspects of character movement: Your argument in your post is that in cases of same character movement, there is an ethical issue. Well, both Slippy Slopes and Arctic Smash feature characters moving the same basic way, as part of the downhill-style gameplay. The snow trails behind them are different? ...Maybe some forms of gameplay do require a specific character movement (e.g. face downhill a certain way, and move vertically down) in ways that matter to this discussion of ethical model and improvement?
    I do think Slippy Slopes pre-dates Arctic Smash, that both games are good (just with different art styles and obstacle designs), and that Arctic Smash may be considered a model and improvement (improvement in the sense of sufficiently different, but not necessarily as better, since I think both games are equally as good). I bring this up because I think your argument should be modified.
    In the case of Pigeon Pop, its core gameplay mechanic did not even use the dancing. The dancing is added animated decor in the app, and that animated dancing decor does rip off the compositional structure and animation from another source. Yet, it is not part of the character movement.
    So, how do we modify your argument to explain how Arctic Smash is not an unethical copy, and Pigeon Pop is? Does the distinction between decor vs character movement matter here?
    I realize this is personal for you now, since it involves your game Arctic Smash, but my hope here is to encourage more discussion about what is and is not ethical model and improvement and why.
     
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  8. OneHitGamer

    OneHitGamer Miniboss Boxer

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    Yeah, "model and improve" would have been like....they could have taken the idea of a dancing animal....say a frog...made him dance and bob. INSPIRED BY.....versus steal. Although if i designed those new visuals...which ARE impressive...i would have just reached out to original animator. You know he would approve of using it.
     
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  9. Benfont

    Benfont Avid Boxer

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    This is not personal to me, even if you mention one of my games.
    The point you are missing is that Fortafy lifted assets from the artist. They took the same pigeon and the same movements and changed the vector lines. They got caught doing that and were forced to release an update removing the dance moves
    upload_2018-3-8_17-36-21.png

    Even Facebook got involved and apparently closed their FB page (I can't confirm this, I just read it here)
    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/25/mobile-game-pigeon-pop-gets-caught-stealing-artwork/

    I am not going to get in an argument about modeling and improving vs stealing art. Everybody has their own opinions and quite frankly it can be a subjective topic. I am also very busy at the moment.
    Thanks for playing Arctic Smash!
    Cheers
     

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  10. haulappmobile

    haulappmobile Boxer

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    Model and improve was applied here. There was an improvement in design, aesthetic, and context. Ethics can be argued here, but overall there was "improvement" from the original concept whether you can appreciate it or not. Repurposing two rough throw away animations into an entire polished game is an improvement - a shitty one - but an improvement never the less. Let's not forget principles because of our own personal virtues.
     
  11. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    As I said before, gameplay/core loops can't be copyrighted. Thank God. I mean you wouldn't want only one platformer or only one downhill skiing game, or would you? As video game artists we need the freedom to be able to do whatever we want with the mechanic we want. But it applies as well for other art forms. Without this freedom art in general would not evolve.

    Having said that, @Jamie, there are many arguments already posted in this thread that refer to the difference between the comparison you make. I mainly want to point out that the art style of a specific artist is the most important one. If you use in your game a Warhol banana as your character or a Banksy girls that graps red balloons, well, then it is exactly that: a copy of this original artwork implemented in your game. You can change the design, the colors, the sizes and proportions, but the key message of the original artwork is still there and sometimes so huge and important that you never will get around the fact, that you copied the original artist. The entire game idea of Pigeon Pop evolves around the particular idea of a dancing and eating pigeons from Keke. So yes, this is clearly a copy of something that didn't 'belong' to them. So what should had happened is that they appropriated the idea and make it completely stand on their own. But they simply didn't care and made it so evident they copied Keke's assets and animation movements. Basically tracing the original artwork.

    What I want to say is, that a core loop or core mechanic of a game is like jump and run. Something so basic that it's impossible to appropriate it for yourself. Using a specific artwork from someone else is very different in this aspect. Changing the pigeon to another animal would have been very easy and they would have distant themselves enough from the original artwork. Maybe even using different dance poses would have been enough.

    And just one comment regarding some people saying that the design got improved. Nope. How dare you to say which design is better than the other and legitimate it because of that? Is pixel an improvement over vector? Or 3D over 2D? I completely disagree with this thought. Keke's artstyle is famous because of how it is. He chose to do this artwork with this style. Check out his portfolio. He has many styles in design and animation. It's like saying Picaso is ugly and of bad quality because he didn't paint in a realistic style. That's just plain ignorance here.
     
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  12. haulappmobile

    haulappmobile Boxer

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    Let's play a game. Imagine none of this controversy existed and you saw these two forms of artistic expression be shown to you.

    Screen Shot 2018-03-08 at 1.05.39 PM.png
    At first glance with no added context, which one would be more eye-catching and appealing? You may be apart of the niche community of people who appreciate basic minimalism and pixel art - but in the wider universal scope - this would be an IMPROVEMENT to the mass majority hands down. Plain ignorance is pretending otherwise. His whole portfolio isn't the controversy here, these two animations are.

    Is it wrong? YES. Should it have been called out? YES. Should we stop making up our own definitions for model and improve and accept that it in its purest form it is copying existing content and improving upon it whether stylistically or in a different medium? YES.
    There are good and bad ways to do it, but it's the same principle nevertheless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  13. haulappmobile

    haulappmobile Boxer

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    Also, Christoph, comparing a person with a photo-realistic style and a stylized one is not an appropriate argument for this discussion. Execution and quality are. Art is subjective but most standards are based on widespread perceived public perception. This isn't "pixel vs vector", this is execution vs execution.

    This game wasn't made for Keke's audience, it was made for mobile casuals who they banked on not having a single idea who the artist was. Oops

    Also, you forget the added game aspect being an improvement. Making something an entire game over a 5-10 frame tumblr animation is an improvement, unless your mind keeps convincing you it isn't for the sake of your own argument.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  14. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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  15. jmiller8031

    jmiller8031 Avid Boxer

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    I'd change the skateboard to a scooter and call it done.
     
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  16. haulappmobile

    haulappmobile Boxer

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    My advice, don't be inspired off anything on twitter or tumblr. The sites are known to blow things out of proportion and make people/companies lose their entire notoriety off rudimentary things.
     
  17. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    Can we stop acting like " Model and Improve" is a REAL thing outside of the Trey Smith/Buildbox bubble? This is not a legal term guys. There is not a "Model and Improve" law on the books.
     
  18. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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    In saying we should do ethical model and improvement, I think people are saying that your inspirations and creations as a game artist should respect laws and legality of intellectual property, such as copyrights and trademarks. How to be both ethical, and good at model and improvement, without producing a contradiction between the two, seems to be what this thread has been about.
     
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  19. haulappmobile

    haulappmobile Boxer

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    So we should call it what it is, stealing and repurposing. Don't defend it with your own personal beliefs on how this philosophy "should" work. If you knowingly take a concept and try to add your flair to it without permission, congratulations, you are "ethically" stealing, or in some cases just straight up stealing but STEALING nonetheless.

    Copy and improve is also a real idea in business, but I digress.

    Your favorite game Candy Crush stole from Bejeweled. Execution is important but the concept is stolen. It's only acceptable if YOU think it is.

    Complicated laws aside, people seem to be selective on what they believe is ethical. Making the circle of hypocrisy constantly rotating. Either all of it is or none of it is.

    Fortafy are crooks, Epic Games are crooks, EA are crooks. Most major publishers are CROOKS. Don't be selective if you like them, call them out.



    Fortafy copied Keke's animations frame by frame, ran with the idea of a pigeon eating and turned it into a game.


    Fortnite copies internet content and established dances frame by frame sells them without asking permission and shouldn't be praised or have excuses made for them. If you call this homage or think this it is fine, then you are being a hypocrite cause the same argument can be applied to Fortafy's evil.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  20. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    Yes, the idea exists in business, but now law allows another business to take another artist ORIGINAL creation wholesale, and make money from ad revenue.


    You can't model and improve a character design.
     

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