A Lots Of Question

Discussion in 'Buildbox General Discussion' started by GM1986, Jul 13, 2016.

  1. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    Hi, I'll start by saying english is not my first language and I've got a lot say and ask so I'll do my best to express myself as clearly as I can.

    So, first thing first I just discovered BuildBox and it looks amazing, at least with a lot of potential, for that I've got say good work and keep it up.

    Sadly my second point will be about my two firsts deceptions (disapointements).

    1. The price... Too damn high; 99$ monthly, a litlle bonus for an annually payment or 2 675$ for a full licence!!! Seriously!?!? I know that you target people that can't code and I know that you are only 15 in the team, I'll take that in consideration... but still.

    Unity is free (except the package with services), and if I don't want to code I can buy Visual Scripting plug-ins between 50$ - 250$. I made a wishlist of all the assets that I could want and it goes up to 1 000$ max.

    Unreal is free and with a Visual Scripting tool for the people who can't code.

    If you really want to make a breakthrough you will have to change your business model. Take for exemple Adobe Illustrator it cost 19$ a month or 240$ annually. A huge company with a lots of revenue and big teams. But there is Sketch from Bohemian Coding (https://www.sketchapp.com/) or Affinity Designer of Serif (https://www.sketchapp.com/). They are like 99$ and 70$ one time fee for a lifetime licence. Made up with a very small team.

    That is the way if you want to make a difference, a new way for creation and a damn good price (democratization). You should do a freemium like business model; Versions: LITE = Free with some restrictions, maybe a STANDARD = 250$ - 500$ with less restrictions and maybe a PRO = 500$ - 1 000$ with all features no restriction. And put up packages like a discount for blocks of 10 licences, etc... I read in an interview with your PR that you think about free version that is good.

    2. The second negative point is there is no roadmap of what's coming in the future, near and long shot. And that you close features request to the ones whos got a paid licence, honestly because of the price and because I don't know what are your intentions I'll not pay for it and for what I read on some forums pages or youtube comments I am not the only one.

    QUESTIONS/REQUESTS: because I don't have access to a Roadmap and Features Requests I'll write here.

    I am an interactive and immersive experiences designer (I study in experimental media in Montreal I am finishing a Master Degree (it mostly installations), I studied and did some mentorat in Video Games and now I am working as a UX designer in a web agency).

    Here is the thing I want to go indie and to help me out I am looking/searching and shopping tools for my workflow. One of the biggest frustration is that often we need a lots of tools and a big pipeline of tools. What I want to do is video games mixed with immersive and interactive installations. I want to think outside of the box (or the screen, what I mean is I don't want to make games only for mobile/tablet, console or PC's) I want to transform an environment in a gaming interface.

    1. Does your engine will only do 2D and 2.5D videogames? Will you go to a various kind of games?
    Check this one out: http://spark.tools/.

    2. Will BuildBox will go to 3D games, not necessarily as heavy as Unreal of course (if you want to go for it but...)?

    3. Will BuildBox be able to create a various types of games (turn based RPG and strategy, RTS, FPS, Third person, etc... etc... etc...)?

    4. BuildBox seems to have a lots of potential and not only in videogames, but for wearable/mobile/tablet apps, interactive and immersive installations (very popular in advertising/marketing, festivals, events, museum and galery), Internet of Things (a business with trillions of dollars potential, http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/b/f329fe55-53ef-46a2-abe3-fdbc6c411617), VR/AR, etc... Will BuildBox could become a Multi-Platform & Transmedia Engine?

    5. Will we be able to create our own nodes or features?

    Here's some tools that I worked with or know that can be a lots of inspiratins for you guys;

    Max 7: https://cycling74.com/
    A node based or visual scripting tools that permits yu to design and develop a lots of different kinds of interactive experiences. Very popular in installations, arts and even science. A lots of artists and designers are using this tool. (a very small team like 12 or 20 people behind this) I know that you'r visual scripting is mostly for menus or worlds, but you can see this more like an inspiration.

    Touchdesigner: http://derivative.ca/
    Similar to the first one, but more powerful for videos and visuals experiences.

    For interactive/immersive videos I suggest to look for this two's made by HonkyTonk in Paris:
    http://www.klynt.net/fr/
    http://www.wondavr.com/

    It could be nice to have some built-in tools like what this tools can do:
    http://fr.esotericsoftware.com/ (2D animation, but it could be nice to do 3D ones too, and maybe some compositing)
    http://www.madmapper.com/ (videomapping)
    https://resolume.com/ (videomapping, it could be awesome to get built-in features for videomapping for the pepople that would want to project their games or experiences or make a multi monitors experiences)

    For apps design and developping :
    https://www.flinto.com/
    https://www.invisionapp.com/
    http://www.adobe.com/products/experience-design.html

    UbiartFramework or even Snowdrop of Ubisoft can be an inspiration (originally Snowdrop had a small team)


    I really like your approach but like I said the two things that stops me and I think I am not alone is the PRICE and the limitations (I know you are a small team and it is a young tool, I just want to know where you guys are going that's it)

    What my pipeline looks like is this:
    Unity for my engine
    Plugins to Unity to upgrade it:
    For my UI design : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/47163
    For Arduino (electronics and Internet of Things) : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/62912
    For my scripting : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/3535
    For dialogues tree : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/11672
    For some buildings 3D modeling : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/7292
    For Tech Trees : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/14052
    For Group AI : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/13372
    For videoplayback : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/10032
    For SVG/vector based design : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/38258
    For Visual Scripting : https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/59656

    FOr my 2D I have to intention to ditch Illustrator for Affinity Designer. FOr the 3D Blender or maybe Maya LT. For the videomapping madmapper.

    Check out this too : http://syphon.v002.info/
    Spout is the Windows one.
     
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  2. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    Man, this sounds all very complicated. I really am impressed with what you want to do and what tools you are going to use. But in all honesty, I don't think that Buildbox is for you or for your projects. Buildbox is thought to be a simple and straight forward tool to make mobile games in the first place. So no, BuildBox will never become a Multi-Platform or Transmedia Engine as you want it to. It will expand to console support probably, but that's about it.

    Anyway, not sure why you would want to mix so much different things into one box alone. Video mapping for example, is something for its own and much closer to animation or video tools. And still then, you don't want Madmapper to be part of After Effects or Final Cut Pro. It deserves its own tool. It's like Photoshop and its editing capabilities. You won't edit in Photoshop your next feature film, would you? Interactive videos and immersive installations? This definitely has nothing to do with a game engine either. So not sure what you are looking for but one tool ain't it for sure.

    Cool to see people like you with a huge vision of what you want to achieve and I'm sure you are going to find the tools you really need to express your art. Good luck and much success with your projects.
     
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  3. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    It was more like do they have the intention of let the community create some plug-ins and etc.

    Thats why I put Unity and all my plugins (and wishlist) : Easy movie texture will permit me to create some interactive videos inside Unity. Unity have a Syphon plugin that permits me to let my project through Madmapper. And because I am not good as a coder I like the Plugin Nottorus that permits me to do my scripting through a visual one. And ARDunity to connect an environment to my game and vice versa.

    And if you look at klynt and wondaVR it look a lot like BuildBox UI and approach.

    It was more a huge question to know ehre they are going to see if I could put BuildBox in my pipeline like if I would want to map a platformer game onto walls and installations it could be nice.

    Thank You
     
  4. INKY

    INKY Avid Boxer

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    Firstly...wow for some who's first language is not English I gotta say you do a better job than me...born in "Murica"...

    Secondly...I would think there is a roadmap...but not one we will know about. I have never relied on "road maps"...or "time lines" either for that matter...they are rarely met. Intentions may be great...but you just can't expect them.

    And lastly...you do have a great vision and I find it hard to understand with all the tools you have or have used...and are using your not able to afford at least $99/month. Sorry but as I said in another thread...I'm 46 and at 15....just mowing lawns I could afford BB at that price had it existed. Wether a hobby or a business...if you want it you can or will make it happen. Good luck doing so.

    Lol and now lastly lastly :) (additional thought)...adding all those features you spoke of would only make BB complicated...and if your correct a 15 man team...BB would be nearly un-supportable IMO. It would make BB cost even more and you already don't like the price...BB is...simple...and I want it to stay that way...adding expression editors and tables...or some other complicated mathematical logic trees would send me away in an instant. In fact that's what drove me away from GameSalad (sorry to speak of it here) Complicated...un-supported in both forums and staff...the users fix their software and find the answers for them most the time. They should open source it and close their doors frankly. BB has excellent support and I can trust when issues arise they will get fixed promptly.

    Also, it looks like to me you already know a cheaper way to do what you want anyways. Why the push Id ask?

    I do appreciate your post though...very nice one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  5. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    I think I am not that good in english because I have been misunderstood in the why I post this thread.

    1st on the point about the cost. I don't want to be disrespectful but your point about being able to pay or not is irrelevant. Meaning that I compared their price, their style and how big the team is.

    If you take all the open source tools that are free and some of them are pretty easy to use others I must admit not that easy (and it is an euphemism hehehe). And the big tools that are free too. You take the ones in the betweens, like the ones I point out form Honkytonk, Klynt and Wonda VR very easy to use, very small team and still they are around 500 to 800 euros, like between what 700 to 1 000$ US. Take Max small team, but they are in the business since a while so thats why they have a lot of features, not that easy but much easier for artist and designer who don't code, and still it is like 400-500$. My point was about the ratio comparing to other players.

    And I don't have all the tools that I point out, I tried them, got demos, had them at school or at my job, personally right now I can't afford much with all my student loans.

    2nd point was more to understand where they are going with this, because it seem pretty nice that tool, but are we all gonna do the same lokk alike games if we all use that "simple" tool? (just a naive question) And I was more like giving them ideas where they could go and add. It was more like bouncing ideas and brainstorming with them and the community. I am pretty sure they know what they are doing.

    I understand that using Unreal and having the learning curve that comes with it can be hard, but I just want to be sure that BB will not do the mistake to be to restrictive instead of simple, I saw that a lot the confusion between keeping it simple and let it be restrictive aswell.

    I am pretty sure there is way to make BB more complex without being too hard to learn and use.

    Like I said simple doesn't mean restrictive but it can be, and complex doesn't mean hard but it can be.

    Thanks tough nice tought.
     
  6. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    I think people need to compare apples to apples.
    Let's start with Unity:

    Unity raises $181M monster round at a reported $1.5B valuation
    https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/13/u...-growth/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000591&yptr=yahoo

    Screenshot 2016-07-15 00.40.55.png


    Adobe:

    • Public since 1986 #OldMoney
    • Rich a F*ck, so they can afford to lose money here and there
    • The original price of the software was very steep for years, and only recently launched the subscription solution
    • Apple invest heavily into the company #OlderMoney
    • 95% market share
    8Cell (Buildbox)
    • Smaller user-base
    • New company (can't take on much risk)
    • Catering to the 30+ crowd with money to invest
    • Will get cheaper and better
    • $2700 is the REAL price of most software. Investors inject the company with the needed cash flow until a substantial marketshare is gained (or the company goes out of business)
    • I smell Buildbox 3 in the near future ( take note of the export modules downloading separatley)
    Can everyone please stop comparing Buildbox to software that's been around for over a decade. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  7. nayamamarshe

    nayamamarshe Avid Boxer

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    Buildbox is great. Yeah, Price is pretty high too. But that doesn't Matter as long as my Brother pays for it:cool:
    Unity is Of Course better and cheaper than BB but I find it 1000000x DIFFICULT TO USE.o_O
     
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  8. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    Wow thank you man, you bring up good points. Yeah your comparisons is pretty good.

    My points was more like if you take the open sources tools that are free are not good enough for somes and for the good ones the learning curve and the implication needed by the community is pretty high.

    VS

    The likes (Unity and Unreal just as example), are free because of the backup money they have, easier but still a big learning curve.

    BuildBox should be a little bit more bold and agressive, that's why I proposed the freemium and discount for more than one licences.
    But again you bring up good points. And another point is back then when Unity started it was not that easy to make games, now with the indie community it is more democratic.

    About the Adobe comprison you did a little mistake though. I wasn't comparing BuildBox to Adobe softwares. Because they are not alike at all, not the same tools.

    My comparison was more like Bohemian Coding with Sketch vs Adobe softwares.

    Sketch is a versy small company, small team (at the beginning they were only two and now they are like 12 across Europe), not as old that Adobe.
    And still they pretty cheap like 100$ one lifetime fee, with a lot of free to up to 100$ ont time fee plug-ins.
    VS
    Adobe Photoshop, Ilustrator, etc that are like 19$ a month or 200$ a year.

    Or even younger Serif with:
    Affinity Designer 70$ one lifetime fee VS Illustrator 19$ a month or 200$ a year
    Affinity Photo VS Photoshop
    Affinity Publisher VS InDesign

    This young comapnies are small, young and most of all pretty bold and agressive with their business model.
     
  9. Aaron F

    Aaron F Avid Boxer

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    This is probably the best answer to this question I have seen so far
     
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  10. Aaron F

    Aaron F Avid Boxer

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    Think of it like you are an early investor in Buildbox. If you support the idea behind it then it is worth the price of admission.
     
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  11. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    Yeah I think it is the best way to see it. But now I am too broke heheheheh.

    Of course you all understand that I was just bouncing ideas with the BuildBox team and the community, like a brainstorming. Maybe with my first point I was a little too provocative, but it brings up good points from you guys. I like that.

    And usually the more I am critical or provocative the more I am interested and see the potential. I don't take that much time or energy for something I don't believe in. And BuildBox is on the right way I think, like I said their PR representative talked about the free business model so will see.
     
  12. Andy

    Andy Miniboss Boxer

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    @GM1986
    Thanks for your feedback. We read everything that people request and take it seriously. We are always adding to and revising our future plans. Buildbox is still really young but offers so much. We will continue to improve the software and add more features over time.
     
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  13. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    Nice.

    First I just want to remind you that I think you did an AMAZING job keep it up! Seriously it is awesome what you did.

    I just wnated to share some ideas and start a dialogue with you guys.
     
  14. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    Wrong again. Serif has been around for over 20 years with many investors:

    Screenshot 2016-07-15 10.55.48.png

    You said:
    "This young comapnies are small, young and most of all pretty bold and agressive with their business model.

    But: Serif is old and not so aggressive because it is propped up by investment dollars.

    @GM1986 With all the information I presented here, do you see how your comparisons can be damaging to Buildboxes brand name.

    DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
     
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  15. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    Oh thank you again to get me right.

    No need for capslock.

    It was an honest mistake because of the tool series Affinity that is new.

    I recognize my mistake. My bad.

    Hey you guys of BuildBox just keep it up.
     
  16. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    But we must admit that I am not alone to think it is a little expensive no? Maybe I am wrong.


    If we look at the comments a lots of them are about the price that is too high.

    But again nice work to get my questions and position straight you did a better homework than me.

     
  17. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    No hard feelings man. We need to protect brands that give us the power to make our dreams come true.
     
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  18. GM1986

    GM1986 Boxer

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    No hard feelings at all. AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THAT! (the dreams)
     
  19. Qdeveloper

    Qdeveloper Avid Boxer

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    BuildBox is a different tool in the market, Most of your questions can be done with most other game engines like the one you have mentioned, But probably not with buildbox, Actually the simplicity of the engine itself considered as a pros not cons.

    Regarding the price, I understand it may too much high and costly compared to other tools which is even more powerful and cheaper, But i'm sure you will justify the price when you try the trial, Because buildbox have a ready pre-defined game templates which is well designed, It's more like you buying a 26 game sources to reskin than an actual game framework, Most other engines they give you the power, but still you have a lot of work to create your first prototype, BuildBox already done this for you, Even kid can start his first game, I just like how @TreySmith making great mobile hits using buildbox, Which is totally inspiring.

    The only reason to justify the buildbox high price, It's when you compare it to game sources made in unity3d, But not unity3d engine itself !
     

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