where is the discount for BB1 owners?

Discussion in 'Buildbox General Discussion' started by MethGames, Dec 12, 2015.

  1. stephen_walton

    stephen_walton Boxer

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    The full version of Unity is completely free unless you're doing more than $100K. Unity charge for the pro version which has additional services...none of which are required.
     
  2. stephen_walton

    stephen_walton Boxer

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    While I agree upgrade pricing is unfair, Buildbox 2 is an impressive achievement for Trey and the team with great new features.
     
  3. hokuto_tc

    hokuto_tc Boxer

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    mmm this is a tough one,
    I would not focus too much on "New Customer = Get Buildbox 1 and Buildbox 2 before release = $2675"
    I have seen many times this type of offers on many products and I do understand it. When there is a new version of something coming out, this is what usually happens, the Software Company tells new potential customers "don't worry if the new version is just around the corner, buy now anyway and you will get the new version as soon as it is available" (otherwise new customers would simply wait for the new version to come out first then buy)

    This is an offer THEY HAVE TO DO, the way one should see this is that the new customer is simply buying BB2 now, but because it is not ready yet they get to use the current-older version while waiting for new version to come out. If Company does not do this they would not sell anything until new version is out.
    Also the new customer doesn't really get possession of 2 licenses because in the end as soon as the new customer gets old of BB2 there is no reason to use BB1

    Actually I have even seen at times a discount for the new version if you buy while still in Beta or a month before release date so it could even have been "New Customer = Get Buildbox 1 and Buildbox 2 before release = $2400 if you buy before release date"
    And I would still understand it, it is a promotion and now and then promotions are what they are.

    Existing Loyal Customer = Paid $2675 for BB1 5 months ago and $1337 to Upgrade to BB2 = $4012

    This is the tougher part I know, but I think it is the same as per other game engines. If you consider what you paid for your version (of any engine) earlier on.. then add any amount of upgrade price... It will always be more expensive than what the new customer will pay for buying a new version for the first time. And in this case you the old customer do own the license to BB1 that no one will take away, maybe it can be sold?
    Not sure how this could be improved, a part of course a bigger discount for old customers that are not that old in terms of months of ownership...

    Also they may even come the time when prices may go down? For example am I buy BB2 now at current price, but who knows maybe BB3 due to future market situation may be $1500 instead $2675... and variations, etc...
     
  4. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    Yes, I'm not saying they shouldn't charge. After all it's a business and they need the money to pay the bills and the future development of the software. Heck, they even have the right to make a nice revenue with this. The software is great. No discussion about that. But as Phill says, it's about old and new customers and it really shouldn't be complicated to make everybody happy.
     
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  5. Phill Mason

    Phill Mason Serious Boxer

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    Yes, I meant to take off the 5 month of use for BB1 so far based on current monthly prices of $84 x 5 = $420. Take that off my possible BB1 + BB2 purchase - $4012 - $420 = $3592, almost a grand difference.
    Didn't want this to turn into anti-Buildbox pricing campaign, far from it, but I did want to share my views, I'll leave it at that. I appreciate everyone's opinions too, cheers.
     
  6. ajcoryat

    ajcoryat Avid Boxer

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    @Phill Mason just think about the possibilities of "Mr. Buzz 2.0" Hmmm?
     
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  7. PeterB

    PeterB Boxer

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    I would NOT be happy being converted to subscription either.
    Not being able to edit 1 line of text or update the app, because a subscription had ended, is totally not acceptable to me.

    The bottom line is 50% is to much for where 1.X got to.
    20% to stay current for one more year (ish) and get (support) forum access and updated trainng and manual, that is more palatable.

    I'm not sure where Phill's 5 months of USE comes from? (I still can't release a game in bugware)

    Not sure how many games Phill has released since he bought, or how many sales he has on them...
    But the reality is the 1.X lifetime licence ends here, so I hope everyone is happy with what they can release today.

    I'm not. And that's why 50% is too much. 1.x did not get to where it should have.
     
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  8. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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    I know that @Andy said here on the forums that even with the release of BB2 coming up, Team BB is still going to roll out updates to BB1.X. I don't know when @TreySmith and the team will stop rolling out updates to 1.X. They have continued updating BB1 since the summer, which is awesome. However, if there are still any further updates to 1.X coming out, I could still appreciate that. If not, then I will kind of understand since BB2 will have feature sets that outstrip BB1.X. Still, it would be great if the feature set
    I still plan to use 1.X for a few endless game concepts that I have, and these are game concepts that I can accomplish with just the feature set already there is BB1, without needing BB2.
    Here would be my 2 pet peeves:
    1. Buildbox stops "supporting" BB1 by ending email support for issues with BB1 builds. If this happens, then the lifetime purchase I made to own BB1 will no longer be as valuable.
    2. The lifetime license to BBversionwhatever will only make games that work for 2014-2015 models of platforms (mobile and desktop) such that when the next iOS, Android, or desktop OS versions come out in, say, 2017, I am unable to use BB1 or BB2 to make games that work for these new platforms.
    As long as Buildbox will continue to support customers' issues they have with the Buildbox product they purchased a lifetime license to, then I will be content with my lifetime license! As long as the games I make with the Buildbox product they purchased a lifetime license to will still work on the newer platforms (new OSs for mobile or desktop), then awesome!
    When I purchase a lifetime license (and I did for BB1, and likely will for BB2), I want to be able to make games for the newly updated platforms out there, and I want to be able to interact with Buildbox Support about issues I might encounter with my games working on those platforms...
     
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  9. trudnai

    trudnai Miniboss Boxer

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    Except the fact that Unity3D has a full blown free version just like Unreal Engine 4... So if you are an indie with tight budget you can still make something out and if it becomes successful you can turn to a paid customer.

    Unity had free version for long time but free did not always include all features. They had been forced this to do so because UE4 started this to do so. BuildBox does not yet have a competition so we will see no similar actions in the next years.

    BB is a very new stuff. AFIK first release was around Aug 2014 and now 1.5 years later BB2. Usually we see much longer period for major release for software, my guess is that this might be one of the reason few here are a bit bitter about it. In 18 month paying $99 per month you pay only $1780 till new released. If you pay full for a year then that is $84 per month, so that is little bit over $1500. That is pretty much how much you pay for the upgrade. Other words half price.

    It is already significantly lower than what we would have paid if subscribed instead of buying the product. Problem is that many of us bought a bit later than release day, only few months before the new came out. So for 6 months we paid full price of $2675, and now we feel we need to pay even more otherwise it will be difficult to keep up with others on this very competitive market. So pretty much we only used 1/3 of the valuable life time of BB1, that is $891, leaving on the table $1784.
     
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  10. TreySmith

    TreySmith Moderator

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    I want to make a final post on this and let you know I do truly appreciate all of your comments and opinions. I wish I could make a decision on this that would allow Buildbox to successfully grow and keep every single user happy, but I know that is not going to be possible.

    I can assure you that I've thought about our upgrade pricing more than anyone. For every argument - on both sides - there are multiple counter arguments. For every time there is a company that has a free version, there is a company that had to take theirs away because it was killing them.

    I also know that very few companies are growing in this market. I've spent a lot of time figuring out how to reinvest in Buildbox and allow it to successfully grow. I can't go into detail here, but I can assure you that we would not have near the features of Buildbox 2.0 that we do now if it were not for the upgrade plan. Upgrades are an essential part of the growth for a startup software company, especially one like ours that is bootstrapped.

    Finally, as @Vectology and others have pointed out, we are taking a very standard approach. This was always at the forefront of my decision process. Our upgrade terms, percentages and time allotments are all based on comparable data for our industry.
     
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  11. Auslad

    Auslad Boxer

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    The original owners of BB1 have been offered a 50 per cent discount on BB2. Now if the original owners of BB1 want to change to the subscription method, should not we be also getting a 50 per discount if we choose the subscription method???????? A 50 per cent discount via the subscription method for the original owners of BB1 would be fair, equitable and just!!!! It only makes common sense also.
     
  12. PeterB

    PeterB Boxer

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    @trudnai well said.

    How many games have you released with BB 1.x in your six months?
    (And if you don't mind saying, how many did you sell?)

    The subscription thing is all true, but even if the subscription did not exist at all, IMHO the issue is the same.
    The 2.X change happened quickly and 50% is too much (regardless of the subscription savings or not) because of where BB 1.x got to.

    I actually bought my BB in November 2014, but in those 13 months I'm only just now starting to be able to release a commercial worthy game, because of all of the issues with 1.x..

    1.3.5 came out on the 25th November "2015" and was the first significant version to work as expected, although it only takes moments to scout the forum to still find people with issues like crashing and behaviour oddities and ignored bug reports.

    Plus some features should just BE in 1.X

    That's why I am annoyed.
    Not because of the price difference for subscribers. They don't get to keep anything (Just now, that neither hardly do we).

    For the sake of the future of BB, the subscription price needs to come down even more.
    So I don't have any issues about whatever I paid for the lifetime version.

    The problem is that the lifetime version is now essentially EOL, after only 13 months.

    I appreciate that "Lifetime" was of the 1.X version (without a paid upgrade), but that doesn't make it any easier.

    Bottom line 1.3.5 came out in November 2015 and it's the first time I've felt confident with BB that I could release with it.
    Now it's EOL so I have about 3 weeks to recoup my investment, but with the burden on my conscience that I may not be able to support it going forward, on new device updates etc. and that if I do find bugs, that I can't get them fixed.

    Of course, all that pain goes away if I pay for the upgrade, but 50% is too much, and 3.x will probably be less than 12 months away again,

    That's why I feel let down.

    Not because of the subscription price.
    I wish it was $19pm. It NEEDS to be $19pm to keep market share.
    And that's wouldn't worry me for the lifetime price.

    Except the problem is that lifetime turned out to be 13 months.

    And that's why I think the upgrade price should be <20%, not half again.

    it also raises the bar when unity or whatever owners look at BB.
    It would mean BB respect and look after their clients.

    The new code is going to exist anyway. There's minimal hard costs.
    It's purely whether the loyal customers from the early days, are looked after, or not.

    BTW
    I just installed a piece of music software today, that I bought back in 2007.
    It was no issue and ZERO fee. It supports the new Windows OS (aypk XP was retired after 11 years) and the new music hosts and they didn't ask me for a penny extra.
    Now that's what I call a customer focused business.
    8 years later and my software STILL works on the current devices (os).

    Why shouldn't we expect that same level of service in the games industry?
    As developers we are creating its future.
     
  13. PeterB

    PeterB Boxer

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    @TreySmith apologies I cross posted - I was still typing when you were.

    I appreciate your position and that upgrades are an essential part of your current business plan.

    But also appreciate consumers vote with their wallets and their feet.

    If you lose customers because of your policies, then your business continuity "upgrade plan" isn't working!
    You just lost me for one.

    I'm sure you've checked your "numbers" and you're probably happy with the number of users you are going to lose through not upgrading. So good for you.

    I've been developing on other platforms since I bought BB because of the issues. I could never release using BB to my satisfaction.
    1.3.5 is where it could have started.

    But you've made that decision for me that BB won't be my future game development platform.
    Let's hope I am the minority as you expect.

    As you said, there are very few game engine companies thriving in this pace.
    It seems fairly obvious now as to why...
     
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  14. dmmcmah

    dmmcmah Avid Boxer

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    Like you I bought the $2675 BB1. I was hoping to see a subscription option with the upgrade link, but it wasn't there. I didn't want to pay another $1300 or whatever it was all at once so didn't use the upgrade and selected the per month option.
     
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  15. hokuto_tc

    hokuto_tc Boxer

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    I don't want to derail the thread but there have been a number of buildbox games released on iOS App Store. But you say so far BB 1 bugs made BB 1 unstable...
    Buildbox based games that have been published so far, were they completed with the user-version of BB? Or where they completed with custom fixes made at BB HQ as in quick fixes to release the games?

    I don't understand, I know there will always be bugs, but since 2014 have people been able to use BB 1.x to release fully working games on iOS? Games that do not crash? Without the need for special custom-fixes (as in fixed for that project by Trey's Team) ?

    The Release Version of BB1 did not really allow users to create and publish the simple game-types BB1 is supposed to deliver? Did BB1 users have to use their own coders to maybe fix things?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  16. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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    @TreySmith I just want to make sure that we do not skip the non-financial wants/concerns that I expressed regarding ongoing support for BB1 and BB2 over the future course of time. Can you please clarify about the value of the lifetime license in relation to the concerns over ongoing support that I expressed in my post on this thread? Thank you.
     
  17. Auslad

    Auslad Boxer

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    The fairest solution and most sensible for all BB1 users would be to have a 50 per cent discount option for life being $42 per month or $504 per year. So when BB3 and BB4, BB5..... etc come out we always get the latest version and we don't have to worry about situations like the current one. Trey, please consider activating this alternative for all BB1 users. Thanks
     
  18. Andy

    Andy Miniboss Boxer

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    I won't be getting into the pricing discussion, but wanted to assure everyone who asked or was wondering.... BB1 will be fully supported for years to come. I believe Trey had announced this elsewhere. We will be doing maintenance and bug fix updates as needed. We still have at least one more big release to get out with tvOS and a few other things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  19. Jamie

    Jamie Avid Boxer

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    Thanks @Andy and @TreySmith . Honestly, I can bite the pricing as long as I personally can count on Buildbox for ongoing support for the products I purchase a lifetime license to. For those who don't see this value, I will try to clarify this value: It means that upon having a lifetime license to BB1 and BB2, when December/January 2017 comes around, those who were on a subscription that started Dec/Jan 2016 will have to pay again to continue using the product at all, but I won't. Also, when, say, May 2017 hits, I will still be using BB1 to push new game updates to a game I built with BB1 now. This is valuable, and knowing that Team Buildbox will accept my support issue in May 2017, for the trouble I am having with my new game update for a game I originally built in Dec 2015, is comforting ! This is the true value I see in a lifetime license of a BB product.
     
  20. wesam_badr

    wesam_badr Miniboss Boxer

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    i just hope for BB 1.0 to have its own value so that will still have a use and differ from BB 2.0 what i mean to have the ability to make things that BB 2.0 can't do so i hope to keep updating with valuable and big release each time and have something unique so people will still use it and not be forgotten and through it in the trash because of upcoming upgrades. bytheway when it's going to be updated to 1.3.6...
     

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