where is the discount for BB1 owners?

Discussion in 'Buildbox General Discussion' started by MethGames, Dec 12, 2015.

  1. MethGames

    MethGames Boxer

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    Hi. In some thread ago, Tray talk about the 50% discount to buy BB2 for BB1 owners. I dont see that..!!!
    I'm really not happy to see that for the same price that i have spent 6 month ago for BB1, new customers cant take BB1 and BB2. For me it's a not good policy.
     
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  2. ajcoryat

    ajcoryat Avid Boxer

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    If you are an existing BB customer, they would have emailed you a link to a discounted price. I got my email immediately after the BB2 presentation. Check your spam folder, or email support.
     
  3. Phill Mason

    Phill Mason Serious Boxer

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    Beware, Rant Alert!
    I wouldn't hold your breath @MethGames, I'm in the same boat as you. I also parted with $2675 just about 5 months ago, after asking support specifically if anything new was coming out as I wasn't in a hurry and would have waited for something new if it was coming - I got a "no, BB1 will not be replaced". So I purchased the full license. What a complete tool I was, who in their right mind would purchase the full license rather than pay the low monthly fee if they knew a new version was coming out - nobody, that's who. I'd also question anyone who buys the full license of BB2 now,given there is an $84 per month option, that's almost 32 months to reach the $2675 price tag, I'm pretty sure there'll be another product to replace BB2 within that time-frame.

    So I emailed support to express my disappointment and got some lame response from Natalie about, well you could keep using BB1 for as long as you like - No Really, You Think? Duh! Well thank you very much. She's totally missing the point how about pissed off I am after asking about any future releases and then being screwed as BB1 has now devalued by about $2k for me as of right now. I really thought @TreySmith would have taken a bit more care for those customers who've been with him since Project Zero and only purchased BB1 within the last 6 months, but no. Of course I want to upgrade, BB2 has got everything in it that the entire community has been helping them decide over since BB1 was launched.

    Am I bitter? Yes of course I am. Do I still love BB1, yes of course I do, I'll just have to keep using BB1 for the next 20+ months to feel I'm getting proper value for money out of it :(
    Rant Over.

    Sorry about this post folks, I usually hate making these kind of feelings public, but I needed to get that off my chest.
     
  4. hokuto_tc

    hokuto_tc Boxer

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    @Phill Mason
    I think it is normal you feel like this.
    1) Every software has upgrade paths with discounted prices for license holders of current/older version - This is how the industry works and @TreySmith should really pay attention to this for long term plans and to keep user base with him for many years to come.
    @TreySmith, this is the game industry not Internet Marketing, Affiliate Programs Software, etc... Become aware of this, you are a great marketer but do now let this be your negative aspect of your business

    2) upgrade paths is something new potential buyers/users like me look into when considering buying a new piece of software, if the Software Company does not offer upgrade paths to current users of current/older version than it is VERY HIGH RISK to buy anything from them, especially in the world of game engines and games where things/trends can change rapidly and the old engine will just be an 'old engine'

    3) Upgrade prices are even more relevant for a product that is very uniquely highly priced like BB1 (expensive when compared to other game engines and the tech offered, although unique as in for the limited type of game-types on offer you can do without coding (USP)

    4) How long will BB1 really be kept up to date for (compatibility with iOS/other platforms' new versions over the 'as long as you like you can keep using it' as in for ever). What about adding new platforms, etc.. BB1 could be left behind any time. (Risk to the buyer knowing there will be no upgrade path)

    5) BB1 potentially becoming obsolete as game trends even for simple games can change and BB1 type of games may not be relevant in the near future

    Too much risk for the buyer to buy something that is sold without discounted upgrade path for when a new version comes out.
    At times Software Companies even offer Crossgrades between different products they release, for example users of product XX can Crossgrade to product YY at discounted price over current YY RRP price.

    This is one characteristic of Software compared to Hardware, the Software Maker can really offer good deals to existing customers because you do not need to give a totally new Physical Expensive To Build Piece Of Hardware to your users. It's just a download (Of course there were development costs etc... but I am sure you guys understand what I mean)

    @TreySmith, I am trying to be constructive, do not see my post as some sort of trolling, I like BB2 and I think I will be going for the Subscription and be one of your customers.
    Because my understanding is that subscription in a way is:
    - paying your company monthly entitling me (and supporting the company to keep working on it) to updates, support, new versions, etc... (although I need to keep paying every month for ever if I want to keep getting updates, and this will eventually in the long run cost more then buying the software at the one-off-price).

    It could be that pricing is indeed designed to push people towards the Subscription model because it is a very good model for the Software Company, but as per other software-companies, upgrade prices when new versions are released or crossgrade prices when new bigger product is released are really part and parcel, industry standard way to sell software and hold users-base and reassure new potential buyers
     
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  5. darone

    darone Boxer

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    industry standard like microxxxx give you software assurance (SA) that you need to pay annually (16-22% of your license value/purchased) so you can have a discounted price for any major release in the future.
     
  6. hokuto_tc

    hokuto_tc Boxer

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    I would look at game development creation software like Game Engines, 3D Software for production of game assets, 2D Software for production of game assets, Content creation software like iClone to crete stuff for games, animation software for games, software tools as in middleware for games, etc... you could go on like music DAW software, vmWare to run windows on MACs, etc... vast majority of software makes the industry standard, not the one or very few black sheep, if you go that way there are always opposites like OS X compared to Windows from MicroXXXX is free, Xcode is free compared to MicroXXXX IDE, etc... so please be fair when looking at comparisons and take into consideration the Price of the software as well
     
  7. TreySmith

    TreySmith Moderator

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    OK, there seems to be some confusion here, so let me try to clear this up.

    @hokuto_tc & @MethGames, we definitely have an upgrade plan. Every customer should have received an email the night of the event with an upgrade price link. If you need yours and did not receive it, please email support@buildbox.com. The discount is 50% off. The same as Unity and many other similar pieces of software. We will update the checkout page with upgrade information as well.

    @Phill Mason, I believe you have this mixed up.

    I just logged into support and you emailed us on April 28th asking if there was a Buildbox 2.0 on the horizon and would their be an upgrade fee. On April 29th, Andy replied saying:

    Hi Phill,

    The current plan is Buildbox v2 for fall 2015 and there will be an upgrade fee. Hope that helps!

    Andy Tarkinson
    Buildbox Support

    You then replied saying Thanks and the ticket was closed. I do not think we could have been more clear than that.

    Finally, as for subscriptions vs full pay licenses, we are still receiving many purchases of the full pay license. The reason is, some people do not like the idea of potentially investing thousands of dollars and not owning anything if they quit making the payments.
     
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  8. Rebel Studios

    Rebel Studios Avid Boxer

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    @TreySmith ....We didn't receive any email at all pertaining to the discount :(
     
  9. TreySmith

    TreySmith Moderator

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    @Rebel Studios Did you check your spam folder? Please email support@buildbox.com and they will sort you out. I will also have Natalie resend to all customers on Monday.
     
  10. Rebel Studios

    Rebel Studios Avid Boxer

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    yes... nothing in the spam folder either...
     
  11. Rebel Studios

    Rebel Studios Avid Boxer

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    @Phill Mason .... We are all in the same boat as well... and especially with the exchange rates, we are carefully considering our options
     
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  12. trudnai

    trudnai Miniboss Boxer

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    I think we should see this software as a tool. Tool to create a game. We create games for two reasons: For fun and to make money.

    Now if the main goal is to make money then the equation is super simple, you just have to ask yourself th we questions: Is this tool pays off itself? Is this tool allows to generate more revenue? Is this tool reducing costs of development like paying for developers or valuing your time and effort?

    If game making is only for fun, then maybe you should ask: Are you having fun with this tool? Is this fun justifies your purchase?

    For me I have no problem with the fun part, just struggling with the monetizition part.

    @TreySmith My questions would be: If I go for the monthly payment with the BB2, am I still have the full license for BB1? Is the upgrade offer valid only for a limited time or can upgrade with the reduced price any time for the life time of BB2?
     
  13. TreySmith

    TreySmith Moderator

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    @trudnai It's not limited. You can upgrade at anytime.
     
  14. Phill Mason

    Phill Mason Serious Boxer

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    Hi @TreySmith, you're right, I've just checked and I missed that email because I was looking through all support@buildbox emails and that correspondence was via gameacademy email, which is why I missed it, sorry.

    Still doesn't change the fact that, compared to a new customer purchasing BB2 today, the deal I'm being offered is a tough pill to swallow.
    New Customer = Get Buildbox 1 and Buildbox 2 before release = $2675
    Existing Loyal Customer = Paid $2675 for BB1 5 months ago and $1337 to Upgrade to BB2 = $4012

    This doesn't sit right for me.
     
  15. PeterB

    PeterB Boxer

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    @TreySmith
    You said
    "Finally, as for subscriptions vs full pay licenses, we are still receiving many purchases of the full pay license. The reason is, some people do not like the idea of potentially investing thousands of dollars and not owning anything if they quit making the payments."

    But my feeling is that I've done just that. Bought a full pay licence and have nothing to show for it.
    AFAIR when I bought, the monthly subscription model didn't even exist.

    You might "suggest" you will keep 1.0 "functional" today with emergency updates, but you are going to abandon running two code bases pretty dang fast! even with the best intentions in the world. Even now there are bugs and crashes in 1.3.5 (the last 1.x version).

    I don't care if Unity charge 50% every X.0 upgrade. I didn't buy Unity.

    Also note that many dev engine companies are also doing HONOUR WARE, where you pay "NOTHING" (zilch nada), or LOW FEE until you actually make X money back. As BB allegedly makes the most successes, why don't you have that model? Yeah exactly !

    I won't go in to my full rant here - Natalie has the complete saga in 2 installments.

    Bottom line if you think this even warrants an X.0 status release (to me it is bug fixes and a few features that should have been in 1.0 from the start - excluding the multiple world creator, which probably has a decent amount of code behind it) then 50% for a 12 month'ish update cycle, is too much. In 5 years this will have cost almost $10,000 and almost no one would commit to that going in as 98% of users will make squat and by then the product lifetime of BB will be over.

    I believe a 20% upgrade tax is more in keeping with the state BB 1.X got to and the frequency this is likely to keep happening.

    As already said by someone else, the lump sum as a monthly subscription cost, would keep one current (including BB 3.x and maybe even 4.x) for almost 3 years.

    As of today I now have an EOL product for a one time lump payment.

    Now unless I pay nearly 5K in total, by paying a 50% upgrade fee, I won't have had a one time investment in even a 2 year life product.
    And let's face it, that won't last for 3 years. BB 3.0 is already on Nicks drawing board.

    If you want BB to break the mould and shake up the industry, then what about stop thinking small?

    Instead of milking the X.0 version model, why not have ONE code base and make it modular. Then people can invest as they need and afford and are never out of the loop entirely. Then people don't need to hedge their bets with competing products.

    Then you can release a MASS version, with minimal modules (i.e. 1 game type) and they get to keep/re-use all their work as they upgrade.

    The benefits go on and on.

    And yeah OK so "lifetime" is a misnomer. So do a 10% yearly ($260 $22pm) update charge which includes (this) forum access and updated tutorials and (cough) manual to cover having the latest version/bug fix.

    Do the maths on this scenario. (I'll round the figures up for head maths)
    Only 10% of your current user base do the 50% (yearly) upgrade.
    2000 units at $3K = $6 Million.
    10% upgrade = 200 units at $1K5 = $300K
    The remaining 90% abandon the EOL v1.x product and BRAND and you lose your evangelists and average Joe success stories.
    Total Revenue $6.3 Million.

    Now break the mould.
    2000 units at $3K = $6 Million.
    90% upgrade to the 20% (yearly) fee = 1800 units at $600 pa = $1.08 Million
    Total Revenue Year 2 $7 Million
    Total Revenue Year 3 $8 Million
    Total Revenue Year 4 $9 Million

    But then there's the knock on effect.
    You still have 1800 units evangelising and making success stories so the brand grows by 30% pa. That's compound btw. You do the maths.

    You introduce the modular concept.
    You can do a mass market product without annoying existing members.
    When another BHAM feature like multiple worlds come in, you can charge a OTO (say 5~10%). If that warrants maintaining, then the yearly 20% service charge will be adjusted for them too.

    Micro features like, teleporter, go in your OTO store for say $100~$150.

    It's all modular. People can buy what they need, as they can afford it. If someone needs the killer (what was v 5.x feature) no worries - it's modular.

    One code base.
    The modules are just feature enable ticks in your user database.

    Any sheep who say they are happy to pay 50% every year, versus $300pa for a current (modular) version and support tax, is lieing to themselves to feel big.

    You're an entrepreneur and marketer.
    Do you have the vision to keep me as a customer?

    Otherwise as your second girlfriend used to say to you, "too little, too late, Smith"

    Peter

    PS:
    There's always something stopping me with buildbox. Even today I am blocked from releasing because my character randomly sticks to the roof.
    Even a year down the line. I still can't release a dang game!
    And then you change X.0 (for the next round of bugs) and expect me to pay 50% again.
    How do you think I feel?

    The biggest and best companies in the world, worry about being customer focused.
    Do you even remember what being a customer feels like?

    Do you have the vision Trey?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
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  16. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    Buildbox 2 is now on par with the well-known software companies, so it is no surprise that he would follow the same pricing structure. Yes, we are loyal customers, but this does not entitle us to special pricing treatment that is outside the norm.

    Unity's upgrade price is exactly the same as Buildbox, which is Half of the original price. We have to stop seeing Buildbox as an investment (follow my logic) and as a tool that we use to make games.

    Screenshot 2015-12-12 11.27.38.png Screenshot 2015-12-12 11.27.45.png
     
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  17. Phill Mason

    Phill Mason Serious Boxer

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    @VectologyGames What are you posting Unity for, I'm not buying Unity and don't give a shit about their prices, it's BB this post is about. Try to keep it on topic, you're missing the point. It's not about the money, I don't care much for that stuff, it's the old customer vs new customer scenario.
     
  18. hokuto_tc

    hokuto_tc Boxer

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    @TreySmith: Excellent Trey, that makes much more sense now. It felt strange you would not have any upgrade option for existing users... and I am happy to learn you actually have one. Cool!

    Yes I understand the factors about buy or subscribe I have been thinking about both options myself, it will depend on my business model but at least the option is there.

    Nice one Trey
    Thanks
     
  19. VectologyGames

    VectologyGames Serious Boxer

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    This just seems to be the standard. I'm not really sure what could be the solution.
     
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  20. Christoph

    Christoph Miniboss Boxer

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    I'm not sure that this is the way you should calculate it Phill. But I can understand your anger.
    My calculation would be:
    8 months of subscription (from May to December) = $792
    Buildbox 1 purchase = $2675
    Difference = $1883

    This means it cost you $1883 dollars to keep the software for a lifetime. And it only would make sense if you keep working with BB1 for another 19 month ($18883/$99=19). A timespan were probably BB3 is already in the wild and a timespan were you are using a product that can't do all the things you could do if you went with the subscription purchase.

    This definitely is not a nice business strategy and I can understand why a lot of clients aren't happy with it. Buildbox should care about the customers they already have. Trey said it in the BB2 video but it seems this is not the case. It would be easy to correct this mistake. There should be a way to change from the 1 payment to subscription without losing money. Actually, it would make more sense if the subscription is more expensive than the 1 time purchase. But lets take Phills case: He spent $2675 and used the software for 8 months (May - December). 8x$99=$792. $2675-$792=$1883. Let him change from the 1 time purchase to the subscription which would leave 19 months left on his account ($1883/$99). Phill looses the right to use the software after the 19 months and pays exactly what someone paid when he/she subscribed. Everybody happy. And if not, let him pay an administration fee for changing plans. $99? $200? What ever you think fits the costs you had by offering him the 1 time payment purchase. But still, he would have left 17 month (more than a year!!!) with BB1 and BB2 together.

    That definitely is a huge difference!
     

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